Kings Need to Toughen Up

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#1
The softness of this team has been evident for quite a while, despite the addition of the veterans. In one of the postgames Christie was saying that he would like to see both WCS and Skal swing at the ball when they are in position to do so. No swinging has occurred. No hard fouls have occurred.

Who should lead the charge? The least likely most surprising person on the team. The guy that would provide the greatest irony of all for leading the charge of toughness - Skal Labissiere. Here is what needs to happen. When Joerger puts Skal out on the court knowing he's going to be facing a tough inside player, like Griffin for example, Joerger needs to have a little conversation with Skal. He needs to say to Skal that he's going to be matched up against Griffin and undoubtedly Griffin is going to try to abuse him down low. Griffin will get position on him down low because after all Griffin is a ton stronger than Skal. But once Griffin gets that position down low and puts up the shot Skal should swing, and swing as hard as he can at the ball. Let it fly. If he gets a foul, so be it. Skal should start the game thinking about swing at the ball with everything he's got. Then after he does it the first time, he should do it a second time. Then maybe it just might get in a scouting report that this guy could really unload on you.

For the life of me, I don't understand why this hasn't happened already. The reputation of being cupcake pushovers is obviously out there. If they want to change the rep they better change the action.
 
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#2
The softness of this team has been evident for quite a while, despite the addition of the veterans. In one of the postgames Christie was saying that he would like to see both WCS and Skal swing at the ball when they are in position to do. No swinging has occurred. No hard fouls have occurred.

Who should lead the charge? The least likely most surprising person on the team. The guy that would provide the greatest irony of all for leading the charge of toughness - Skal Labissiere. Here is what needs to happen. When Joerger puts Skal out on the court knowing he's going to be facing a tough inside player, like Griffin for example, Joerger needs to have a little conversation with Skal. He needs to say to Skal that he's going to be matched up against Griffin and undoubtedly Griffin is going to try to abuse him down low. Griffin will get position on him down low because after all Griffin is a ton stronger than Skal. But once Griffin gets that position down low and puts up the shot Skal should swing, and swing as hard as he can at the ball. Let it fly. If he gets a foul, so be it. Skal should start the game thinking about swing at the ball with everything he's got. Then after he does it the first time, he should do it a second time. Then maybe it just might get in a scouting report that this guy could really unload on you.

For the life of me, I don't understand why this hasn't happened already. The reputation of being cupcake pushovers is obviously out there. If they want to change the rep they better change the action.
Unfortunately, it seems that the two toughest players of the young guys is the smallest guy, Frank Mason and the largest guy Papa G, but the least ready to play. Maybe Bogdan can mix it up a bit too.

I agree, that the Kings need to find some "Nasty" :mad: in some of these young guys!
 
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#3
That's definitely an area that needs to be addressed. Skal doesn't have the strength to battle down low. J. Ham said Giles has some of that but who knows. It won't happen overnight but the teams defense especially on the perimeter needs to be sharper.
 
#4
You can coach toughness at this level. It's innate. You have either been coached that way when you were young. IE.: grade school, Middle, High, College. If WCS is not tough by now, he will never be. Maybe, they can do it for a couple games, but sorry it ain't happening.
 
#6
I get what y'all are saying. ....



... clearly, we need to bring back Matt Barnes.
Barnes arranged for the ring ceremony to get his Championship Ring on the night the Kings played in Golden State.

It was NOT an accident he got his ring (which he did nothing to achieve) the same night Vlade and Joerger were in town.

He's a vindictive resentful female assaulting POS.

The guy was still owed guaranteed money from the Kings too but still held a grudge.

I said he was a loser at the time (on and off the floor) and he proved my case to the end.
 
#7
The softness of this team has been evident for quite a while, despite the addition of the veterans. In one of the postgames Christie was saying that he would like to see both WCS and Skal swing at the ball when they are in position to do. No swinging has occurred. No hard fouls have occurred.

Who should lead the charge? The least likely most surprising person on the team. The guy that would provide the greatest irony of all for leading the charge of toughness - Skal Labissiere. Here is what needs to happen. When Joerger puts Skal out on the court knowing he's going to be facing a tough inside player, like Griffin for example, Joerger needs to have a little conversation with Skal. He needs to say to Skal that he's going to be matched up against Griffin and undoubtedly Griffin is going to try to abuse him down low. Griffin will get position on him down low because after all Griffin is a ton stronger than Skal. But once Griffin gets that position down low and puts up the shot Skal should swing, and swing as hard as he can at the ball. Let it fly. If he gets a foul, so be it. Skal should start the game thinking about swing at the ball with everything he's got. Then after he does it the first time, he should do it a second time. Then maybe it just might get in a scouting report that this guy could really unload on you.

For the life of me, I don't understand why this hasn't happened already. The reputation of being cupcake pushovers is obviously out there. If they want to change the rep they better change the action.
I would advocate for this. But there's also a saying about not rattling a bear's cage and letting sleeping dogs lie. I mean maybe it is better to keep Griffin disinterested when if push comes to shove, you know you are more likely to the pushee than the pusher. :)

Between Willie and Skal, neither have delivered a hard foul that I can recall. Its not in their DNA.

I am not sure if that is something you can teach or instruct. It is kind of something you have to bring with you to the court as much as you would your jock strap.

You know who I also perceive as a softie with Charmen-level properties yet hope to be proven wrong?

{{{cue Jeopardy music}}

"Who is Justin Jackson?"

"Correct!"

Between Justin Jackson Skal and Willie it is the Charmen Musketeers!

At least Fox, Mason, Malachi, Papa G and Boggy have some toughness about them.

Perhaps when Skal adds the 20-30 pounds he needs to, I think he could start throwing his weight around and being more assertive with the aggressive play and swipe downs.

Aggressiveness tends to coincide with physicality and physicality coincides with physique and mindset. With Willie and Jackson, because of the age difference and millennial milquetoast mindset, I think their relative finesse game is probably more or less who they are going to be. There's hope yet for the 20 year old Skal. He has a little more beast mode about him than the other two musketeers with more youth on his side.
 
#8
Barnes arranged for the ring ceremony to get his Championship Ring on the night the Kings played in Golden State.

It was NOT an accident he got his ring (which he did nothing to achieve) the same night Vlade and Joerger were in town.

He's a vindictive resentful female assaulting POS.

The guy was still owed guaranteed money from the Kings too but still held a grudge.

I said he was a loser at the time (on and off the floor) and he proved my case to the end.
Maybe he just wanted to do the ceremony in front of the team from the town he grew up in? You know like his tattoo Sactown's finest?

If he was such a loser why did the champions pick him up after we stretched him?

You get a long term veteran to come to town to play here, then stretch him and talk about culture. What he's supposed to just let that go?

Lucky he didn't spill the beans on everything here.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#9
it says it all when you see the Kings get beat and abused time and time again in the paint and all they do in return is smile and laugh with the opposition. It's annoying and other than two or three players on the roster, I don't see the toughness from the bigs and part of it is their thin frame so they can't do anything about it but hack them, the other part however is they are simply not programmed to be tough. I don't think that's something you can teach and if you can, it may take a lot of losing and bruising for that emotion to come out of its closet. Kings sure could use some of Mason's toughness out there, shame that he is hurt for so long. Reports about Giles being a tough guy remains to be seen but I sure would love to see him and Mason dog teams' second units.
 
#10
Some of the veterans are tough.

Kosta is always fighting for boards, sets good screens, bangs on the inside.
Temple is quite the scrapper, but also a nice person at the same time. But if he was guarding you, you'd certainly notice.
Randolph is slower these days, but tough as nails.

For the young guys, Malachi & Bogdan, Mason seem fairly tough to me.

I wouldn't call Buddy weak.

Cooley, Sampson, Papa are tough but never play.

Cater will give you all he has.

Fox is pretty bold at times, drives in to the lane and takes hits, harasses people on the perimeter. Sure is young and not very strong, but he's just fine for now.

WCS is not a big body build, he's lean and finishes mean above the rim. He may get tossed around sometimes by heavier bigs, but it's a wash when you think of his ability to roam & help play team defense.

Skal is the only guy who really needs some help. But from what I've heard he hasn't played a whole lot of basketball. So he needs ample time on the court. Was at the OKC game sitting pretty low and remember him retaliating to Carmelo for a cheap shot. He needs some bulk it's true. But so does most of his game. He's a fantastic project.

Edit, forgot Jackson. He's aggressive at least, if you wanted a tough guy should of drafted OG.
 
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#11
Barnes arranged for the ring ceremony to get his Championship Ring on the night the Kings played in Golden State.

It was NOT an accident he got his ring (which he did nothing to achieve) the same night Vlade and Joerger were in town.

He's a vindictive resentful female assaulting POS.

The guy was still owed guaranteed money from the Kings too but still held a grudge.

I said he was a loser at the time (on and off the floor) and he proved my case to the end.
I agree wholeheartedly. Barnes is a vindictive little *****. Pardon my words. He' a fake tough guy. Our Hoop It Up team got into it with him some years back and we were playing and he was spectating. He didn't want anything, just to talk. Have hated his mark ass ever since. Just mad cuz a certain private school was always better than Del Wacko.
 
#12
I agree wholeheartedly. Barnes is a vindictive little *****. Pardon my words. He' a fake tough guy. Our Hoop It Up team got into it with him some years back and we were playing and he was spectating. He didn't want anything, just to talk. Have hated his mark ass ever since. Just mad cuz a certain private school was always better than Del Wacko.
I played high school ball with him. I'm older though. But there was no tough guy stuff going on back then. I think it came from Mo Cheeks telling him he'd never amount to much and him having to work very hard to have an NBA career.

He was still a kid in the 90's.
 
#13
Maybe he just wanted to do the ceremony in front of the team from the town he grew up in? You know like his tattoo Sactown's finest?

If he was such a loser why did the champions pick him up after we stretched him?

You get a long term veteran to come to town to play here, then stretch him and talk about culture. What he's supposed to just let that go?

Lucky he didn't spill the beans on everything here.
They picked him up because Durant got hurt and he was a vet in an environment of sparse wing players who could learn the system quick and pass the ball to Curry and Klay. That's about it.

If he was more than that, he would have played in their playoff run and Finals and would still be in the league. But he didn't and he's gone.

How anyone can defend this loser is beyond me.
 
#14
Some of the veterans are tough.

Kosta is always fighting for boards, sets good screens, bangs on the inside.
Temple is quite the scrapper, but also a nice person at the same time. But if he was guarding you, you'd certainly notice.
Randolph is slower these days, but tough as nails.

For the young guys, Malachi & Bogdan, Mason seem fairly tough to me.

I wouldn't call Buddy weak.

Cooley, Sampson, Papa are tough but never play.

Cater will give you all he has.

Fox is pretty bold at times, drives in to the lane and takes hits, harasses people on the perimeter. Sure is young and not very strong, but he's just fine for now.

WCS is not a big body build, he's lean and finishes mean above the rim. He may get tossed around sometimes by heavier bigs, but it's a wash when you think of his ability to roam & help play team defense.

Skal is the only guy who really needs some help. But from what I've heard he hasn't played a whole lot of basketball. So he needs ample time on the court. Was at the OKC game sitting pretty low and remember him retaliating to Carmelo for a cheap shot. He needs some bulk it's true. But so does most of his game. He's a fantastic project.

Edit, forgot Jackson. He's aggressive at least, if you wanted a tough guy should of drafted OG.
Spot on except I would not be so kind to Willie.

Where's the toughness and the force? Its not there besides the lob dunk throw down.

Willie is not interested in taking charges or making hard fouls. He would rather take the ball out of the net.
 
#15
The Barnes thing was a joke y'all.

I agree with the premise of this thread. Hopefully some of the kids at the top of the draft have some meanness in em.
 
#16
I agree wholeheartedly. Barnes is a vindictive little *****. Pardon my words. He' a fake tough guy. Our Hoop It Up team got into it with him some years back and we were playing and he was spectating. He didn't want anything, just to talk. Have hated his mark ass ever since. Just mad cuz a certain private school was always better than Del Wacko.
If you would say it to his face, then my hat is off to you - you're a real badass. I strongly doubt it. Matt Barnes is a lot of things. Fake tough isn't one of them.
 
#17
If you would say it to his face, then my hat is off to you - you're a real badass. I strongly doubt it. Matt Barnes is a lot of things. Fake tough isn't one of them.
Nobody in the NBA knows how to throw dogs...except ZBo. Everyone else knows how to throw an elboe and nothing else. I wouldn't worry about me in a fight with an NBA player
 
#18
Did anyone see the altercation between Serge Ibaka and James Johnson? Perfect example of an NBA "fight". By the way James Johnson has fought some MMA. Here is a link to one story. Read it all, there is a funny part about Derrick Rose---> http://grantland.com/the-triangle/they-call-him-bloodsport-james-johnson-kicks-his-way-into-the-nba/

NBA tough is something different than actual fighting. All that said the Kings need a couple of NBA Players with some edge. Wing defenders like Avery Bradley and KCP practice a style of defense where fouls could be called on every play. They are constantly bumping and riding the body of the player they are checking and the refs let a lot of it go. Exhibit A would be KCP's work on Bogey the other night. AS for the Bigs they need to set solid picks, box out for boards and just generally let the other team FEEL their presence. Especially in the paint. When a player is fouled by our Fellas they should know it.

The GSW is an example. Sure having the best shooters is a big part of the story. But don't discount the raw defensive edge brought every night by Draymond, Iguodala, Thompson and the rest of those fellas. I'm sure those guys also watch a ton of film and prepare for each guy they face like it is a life or death mission. Because that is what it takes to be a Champion.
 
#19
The Kings would be significantly better right now by starting Jakarr Sampson. Remember when he was active for that short stint earlier and pulling down rebounds and defending Lebron? If Sac was Ina win now mode, he would be up and playing but they aren't and so Sampson may see time towards the end when all the youngsters are getting run. Sampson is tough as nails with a big heart.....yeah, we could use more of that. Somehow,I don't see Justin Jackson becoming like that.
 
#20
Playing in the NBA is not for the faint of heart. There is plenty of banging going on all the time. Guys hit the floor regularly if they play hard. Lightweights have a hard time competing. You have to be just as tough as the guys you play against. Skal and Willie aren't. They are big guys so they stand out. Kufous can raise his level of toughness to stand up to anyone. He does not whine, and plays under control. Most of the Kings guards have the level of toughness required to succeed in the League. Carter has it, and Randolph has some. I would love to see Sampson and/or Cooley get some minutes to change the tone of the way the Kings play. Toughness is contagious. The Kings big men need to watch some Dennis Rodman film every night before they go to bed.

Ben Wallace, Bill Lambere, Daryll Dawkins, Nate Thurmond, Wilt Chamberlain, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld, Larry Bird. Those guys were tough and played hard.

Demarcus Cousins has the heart of a lion, and the Kings really miss that. Unfortunately he has the emotional maturity of an 8th grader.
 
#21
These guys aren't going to change into tough guys so you either need to draft those types of guys or trade for them.

We've drafted for skill and culture (ie nice guys) so it's no surprise that these guys are soft. If they wanted toughness, they had their pick of Mitchell, John Collins, Jordan Bell etc but they went with Jackson (a 10/10 on the softness scale) and Giles who we will find out about at some point.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#22
The softness of this team has been evident for quite a while, despite the addition of the veterans. In one of the postgames Christie was saying that he would like to see both WCS and Skal swing at the ball when they are in position to do so. No swinging has occurred. No hard fouls have occurred.

Who should lead the charge? The least likely most surprising person on the team. The guy that would provide the greatest irony of all for leading the charge of toughness - Skal Labissiere. Here is what needs to happen. When Joerger puts Skal out on the court knowing he's going to be facing a tough inside player, like Griffin for example, Joerger needs to have a little conversation with Skal. He needs to say to Skal that he's going to be matched up against Griffin and undoubtedly Griffin is going to try to abuse him down low. Griffin will get position on him down low because after all Griffin is a ton stronger than Skal. But once Griffin gets that position down low and puts up the shot Skal should swing, and swing as hard as he can at the ball. Let it fly. If he gets a foul, so be it. Skal should start the game thinking about swing at the ball with everything he's got. Then after he does it the first time, he should do it a second time. Then maybe it just might get in a scouting report that this guy could really unload on you.

For the life of me, I don't understand why this hasn't happened already. The reputation of being cupcake pushovers is obviously out there. If they want to change the rep they better change the action.
Jack Cooley.
 
#23
I think you can make players tougher.
I coached a lot of high school and middle school players. We always did a lot of loose ball drills and rebounding drills. In order to get the automatic level of effort and desire I was looking for they ran laps. Like if a guy got beat twice in a row on defensive rebounds. Three laps of the gym didn't do it, neither did 5, but at 10 they started to play much harder. I made them do push ups. They changed. Pros making millions of dollars can learn to be tougher. Make them go 10n1 with Sampson and Cooley every day at the end of practice while the team watches.

I grew up playing for money on the playground. Anyone that has played golf for money, knows how it changes the game.

I was pissed off growing up and used basketball as an outlet for all of that anger. I hated my Dad and authority in general. I played back up center on a high school team at 6'2" a long time ago and got by on meaness and good hands. Our league had plenty of guys going to ACC colleges on full ride scholarships. My next door neighbor went to NC State after high school. He was 6'7" and we played all the time in the driveway. Unfortunately he did not play for our high school. He went to the school across town with the big domed stadium with an upper deck. That pissed me off even more.

Today when I walk into a gym and hear the ball bounce, and the squeaking of shoes, the blood pressure goes up, I get excited by being there. Willie and Skal and some other guys need to learn to do the same thing.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#25
I think you can make players tougher.
I coached a lot of high school and middle school players. We always did a lot of loose ball drills and rebounding drills. In order to get the automatic level of effort and desire I was looking for they ran laps. Like if a guy got beat twice in a row on defensive rebounds. Three laps of the gym didn't do it, neither did 5, but at 10 they started to play much harder. I made them do push ups. They changed. Pros making millions of dollars can learn to be tougher. Make them go 10n1 with Sampson and Cooley every day at the end of practice while the team watches.

I grew up playing for money on the playground. Anyone that has played golf for money, knows how it changes the game.

I was pissed off growing up and used basketball as an outlet for all of that anger. I hated my Dad and authority in general. I played back up center on a high school team at 6'2" a long time ago and got by on meaness and good hands. Our league had plenty of guys going to ACC colleges on full ride scholarships. My next door neighbor went to NC State after high school. He was 6'7" and we played all the time in the driveway. Unfortunately he did not play for our high school. He went to the school across town with the big domed stadium with an upper deck. That pissed me off even more.

Today when I walk into a gym and hear the ball bounce, and the squeaking of shoes, the blood pressure goes up, I get excited by being there. Willie and Skal and some other guys need to learn to do the same thing.
I totally agree. Toughness can be learned. Just like a new guy working on the farm with soft hands gets blisters, he eventually gets calluses, and those hands toughen up.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#27
If Skal could do it, then everybody on the team would have to say to themselves: If he can do it, I can and should do it.

If Cooley does it, then he's just a developmental scrub that gets paid for hacking NBA basketball players. Not much inspiration in that.
Agreed about Skal. And you're probably right about Cooley, but I still look him as the only person who has thus far exhibited anything remotely resembling toughness. I was thinking he might inspire the others, but your perception is probably more accurate.

Maybe we should let Kayte out there. She was tougher in her day than any of our kids.
 
#28
While that is true, Jack is not a draftee but a mature player on a two way contract. Reports are that Giles has some Nasty in him. It will be mich needed no doubt. This team does lack toughness, especially in the big man department. Zbo is done, Kosta barely playes and Papagiannis just doesn’t play. Papa is the one that is a tough bugger
 
#30
I remembered another way to improve rebounding today. There is a ring you can put on top of the basket. It will let a perfect shot drop, but everything else is a rebound. Install one of those during a practice and the rebounding gets intense. People learn to expect every shot to miss and work hard to get it. Today against the Clippers in LA, Hill made a nice put back. There were no big men even in the camera shot.

Plenty of guys make it to the NBA that are not good shooters, or have limited range. With practice, they can become really good at it. It is the same with rebounding and toughness. You can teach it and insist on it. We had a Marine drill sargeant type coach. I never liked him, but our team played tough with anybody. We got beat sometimes by better players, but never by tougher players.
 
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