Hedo NBA MVP FOR 2003-2004?

quick dog

quick dog

Starter
#1
#1
Look what I just read in a Turkish on-line newspaper. Hedo was the NBA MVP last year. And to think we traded him. Brad Miller was fourth. Wow!

Hidayet Turkoglu named Most Valuable Player of NBA 2003-2004 season

CihanNews: 10/22/2004


ISTANBUL (CIHAN) - Turkish star player Hidayet Türkoglu was named as the MVP (most valuable player) of the NBA 2003-2004 season, in a recent survey carried out by expert Jeff Sagarin and professor Wayne Winston.

Hedo Turkoglu, who played for San Antonio Spur last season, ranked first, outshining all other NBA stars, to become MVP for the season, showed the survey carried out by Wayne L. Winston, a professor of decision sciences at Indiana University and his friend Jeff Sagarin, a professional sports statistician.

Sagarin and Winston have formulated a ranking that is similar to hockey's plus-minus system, in which players receive credits for being in the game when their team does well. Whether they actually score points or grab rebounds does not matter.

Hidayet was followed by Toronto Raptors' Vince Carter, by Minnesota Timberwolves' Kevin Garnett, by Sacramento Kings' Brad Miller and his old teammate Emanuel Ginobili. Hidayet will play for Orlando Magic this season.

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=31512
 
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Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#3
#3
quick dog said:
Look what I just read in a Turkish on-line newspaper. Hedo was the NBA MVP last year. And to think we traded him. Brad Miller was fourth. Wow!

Hidayet Turkoglu named Most Valuable Player of NBA 2003-2004 season

CihanNews: 10/22/2004


ISTANBUL (CIHAN) - Turkish star player Hidayet Türkoglu was named as the MVP (most valuable player) of the NBA 2003-2004 season, in a recent survey carried out by expert Jeff Sagarin and professor Wayne Winston.

Hedo Turkoglu, who played for San Antonio Spur last season, ranked first, outshining all other NBA stars, to become MVP for the season, showed the survey carried out by Wayne L. Winston, a professor of decision sciences at Indiana University and his friend Jeff Sagarin, a professional sports statistician.

Sagarin and Winston have formulated a ranking that is similar to hockey's plus-minus system, in which players receive credits for being in the game when their team does well. Whether they actually score points or grab rebounds does not matter.

Hidayet was followed by Toronto Raptors' Vince Carter, by Minnesota Timberwolves' Kevin Garnett, by Sacramento Kings' Brad Miller and his old teammate Emanuel Ginobili. Hidayet will play for Orlando Magic this season.

http://www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=31512
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Congrats Hedo!:rolleyes:

Must be the 'ole hockey stat: plus/minus.

And gee, look at all the players on the elite teams appearing on the list.
Am curious about Vince Carter's presence though. That could almost mean something -- namely that maybe he isn't as limp and impotent as most (including myself) thinks.
 
sloter

sloter

Starter
#4
#4
Actually, I think that +/- stat is a really useful one. I'm not surprised that Hedo is ranked high in this cause he really does a little bit of everything and can transform his game to his team's needs, but I am surprised that he is ranked #1 in this category. I wonder if they take minutes played into consideration.
I also wonder where Webber ranked last year.
 
Nikos

Nikos

G-League
#5
#5
Its nice that Hedo had a high +/- stat, but keep in mind he wasn't FINISHING basketball games on a regular basis, and playing all the crucial minutes down the stretch. He had to split that with Bowen depending on what the team needed.

Might be slightly more interesting if he actually did finish basketball games that were CLOSE.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#6
#6
+/- is always seriously flawed. First of all it is almost entirely dependant on the talent of your team. But even beyond that, it favors players depending on the relative talent of the guys they normally hit the floor wiht. If you have a great starting lineup and a generally weak bench, then your starters will have impressive +/- and your backups will have middling ones. If you have middling starters but a deep bench, then the bench guys will do better. Any stat that radically changes if Brad Miller is on the floor with Vlade, Peja, Christie and Bibby as opposed to on the floor with Buford, Wallace, Massenberg and Jabari is suspect. Same player. But only 1/5 of the contributor to the +/-.

P.S. yes Sloter, we are all aware that Webb's +/- was poor last year. Of course I have repeatedly pointed out it was also the best on the team the year before.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#9
#9
sloter said:
Actually, I think that +/- stat is a really useful one. I'm not surprised that Hedo is ranked high in this cause he really does a little bit of everything and can transform his game to his team's needs, but I am surprised that he is ranked #1 in this category. I wonder if they take minutes played into consideration.
I also wonder where Webber ranked last year.
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1. Webber was playing in the playoffs and putting up pretty respectable numbers. What did Hedo do in the playoffs?

2. If Hedo could, in fact, "transform his game to his team's needs," he'd probably still be in Sacramento...or San Antonio, for that matter.
 
Kev.in

Kev.in

Starter
#10
#10
Here's the article that started it all, it goes into a little more detail:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/spor...c21102104oct21,1,4749763.story?coll=orl-magic
Turkoglu's versatility valuable to Magic
By Brian Schmitz | Sentinel Staff Writer
Posted October 21, 2004

BILOXI, Miss. -- What does billionaire Mark Cuban, a Jeopardy! champion and a creator of a computerized college-football poll have in common with Hedo Turkoglu?

They all inspired the birth of a quirky rating system that identified Turkoglu, who the Orlando Magic signed this summer, as the most valued player in the NBA last season.

That's right. Not Shaq or Kobe or Kevin Garnett, but Turkoglu.

After averaging just 9.2 points per game for the San Antonio Spurs, the Magic signed him to a six-year, $39 million free-agent deal. Some say they overspent.

Why the to-do over Turkoglu?

Well, in the ratings system developed by Jeff Sagarin and Wayne Winston, a player's value to his team is measured by more than mere points. Factored in are stuff such as chasing loose balls, taking charges and playing off-ball defense, intangibles overlooked by most traditional stats.

Their 2003-04 rankings: 1. Turkoglu 2. Vince Carter. 3. Garnett. 4. Brad Miller. 5. Manu Ginobili.

Sagarin is known as the father of USA Today's computer college-football ratings. Winston is an Indiana University professor and a past Jeopardy! champ. They were math whizzes years ago at MIT and combined their love of computers, statistics and sports.

Cuban, the rebel owner of the Dallas Mavericks, was a student in Winston's math class at Indiana. When they ran into each other at a Mavs' game four years ago, Cuban asked Winston how his team could be improved.

Winston had an epiphany while lounging at his Dallas hotel pool, and the "Winval" rankings system was born. It is modeled after hockey's plus-minus system, in which players are evaluated on how their team performs when they are on the ice.

Magic General Manager John Weisbrod, a former NHL player and a big believer in team dynamics, had seen such reports on Turkoglu and his multifaceted game.

"I'm a little unorthodox, too," Weisbrod said. "I put emphasis on things that not everybody else does. Turkoglu rated out very, very high."

After doing his own detective work, Weisbrod decided that the 6-foot-10 forward could bring a lot more to the floor than raw numbers.

That's why the Magic aren't panicking over the preseason shooting slump that Turkoglu lugs into tonight's game against the New Orleans Hornets. He has missed 20 of 28 shots (29 percent) and averaged six points in four games. Then again, he's had to adjust to many new players who don't know his nuances.

"I can't think about every miss and every make," said Turkoglu, who ranked eighth (41.9 percent) in 3-point shooting last season. "What I think is that there's a next day coming. I will make shots. I look for something else to do in the game. Rebound, get steal, pass."

It's not surprising that Turkoglu admired the all-around game of the recently retired Scottie Pippen, "because he can do so many things and hurt you in many ways. He did more things for his team than just score."

The Magic pursued Turkoglu not only for his versatility, but because he's just 25. After three seasons in Sacramento and another in San Antonio, he was looking for a full-time starting job, and the Magic needed small-forward insurance.

They were rebuilding the team as if Grant Hill wouldn't regain his health. But Hill's left ankle has held up so far, leaving Turkoglu playing behind the six-time all-star.

"Grant's doing great," Turkoglu said. "I am grateful for that because even if you play the same position, you never want to see anybody get hurt."

Turkoglu grew up in Istanbul and became the first Turkish-born player to reach the NBA. When he signed as the Kings' first-round pick in 2000, local television in Turkey was pre-empted to carry his news conference.

Turkoglu started playing at age 10 at a middle school near his home. His parents never worried about him getting into trouble. They always knew where to find him - at the school, shooting, shooting and shooting some more.

"They'd have to come get me if it was dark," Turkoglu said. "I didn't want to leave."
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As you can see, they still have some work to do on the formula because they've got Vince Carter at #2 despite the fact that it's supposed to factor in the intagibles like hustle, taking charges and playing help defense. None of which Vince provides.

I don't know how you can say that Hedo is versitile when he plays much worse coming off the bench. If he adapts to what the team needs, he should be able to adapt to a 6th/7th man role.
 
T

twocents

Bench
#11
#11
if the outcome is wrong in a theory, you should check the premises. i like hedo's game, that is no secret, but his being number 1 in the league as the total package, is a sad joke.
 
P

peja16

G-League
#14
#14
Kev.in said:
As you can see, they still have some work to do on the formula because they've got Vince Carter at #2 despite the fact that it's supposed to factor in the intagibles like hustle, taking charges and playing help defense. None of which Vince provides.
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I know bashing Vince Carter has become the 'hip' thing to do, but unless you watch him game-in and game-out like some of us do, myself included, you shouldn't say that.

Yes, I have my grievances over his play, but anyone who thinks he's 'nothing but a dunker' is living in a time warp.
 
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