Could this be the Kings plan?

[sactowndog]

Okay I have been frustrated with Vlade because I couldn’t see the Kings plan. To me it looked like reactionary moves in the moment. More of the Vivek era....

But thanks to the many knowledgeable posters on this board I wonder if Vlade does have a clear actionable plan:

1) draft a 4/5 in the draft... one of Ayton, Bagley or Jackson

2) Sign Hezonja in free agency to play the 3

Kings ultimate starting line up:
Giles
Bagley/Jackson/Ayton
Hezonja
Bogdanovich
Fox

Damn that could be a hell of a good group.

 

[pshn80]

I think Vlade has a plan and yours sound pretty good too. I wouldn’t be surprised if we have a bright future.

 

[ParniValjak]

I think once Cousins was traded Kings have had a pretty clear plan. Some people don’t agree with their approach or the method but it’s pretty clear that they wanted to go young but make those kids earn their minutes by surrounding them with veterans who can teach them along the way but also make them earn their minutes.

Kings want to find their core and then add to it via trades and FA. Hezonja will be of interest I would have thought and in terms of draft, given that this draft is stacked with front court players (last year it was a PG draft) there is more than a good chance that Kings will draft a big man this year.

 

[sactowndog]

I think once Cousins was traded Kings have had a pretty clear plan. Some people don’t agree with their approach or the method but it’s pretty clear that they wanted to go young but make those kids earn their minutes by surrounding them with veterans who can teach them along the way but also make them earn their minutes.

Kings want to find their core and then add to it via trades and FA. Hezonja will be of interest I would have thought and in terms of draft, given that this draft is stacked with front court players (last year it was a PG draft) there is more than a good chance that Kings will draft a big man this year.

I think the recent moves by Vlade to dump Hill, Malachi and Pappa would indicate the lack of a clear plan unless you can make the case Hezonja’s option not being picked up was an unforeseen event that required this move because the Kings felt they had a high chance of signing him.

Every other player their contract status and availability was well known prior to the Hill signing and picking up Pappa’s option.

 

[ParniValjak]

I think the recent moves by Vlade to dump Hill, Malachi and Pappa would indicate the lack of a clear plan unless you can make the case Hezonja’s option not being picked up was an unforeseen event that required this move because the Kings felt they had a high chance of signing him.

Every other player their contract status and availability was well known prior to the Hill signing and picking up Pappa’s option.

I don't quite agree! Here is my reasoning why!

I come from the same country as Vlade and I follow the club that Vlade and Bogdan have grown at and gone onto bigger and better things. That club has been known as a production line of talented players that are not playing in Europe and the NBA. It has been like that until recent financial trouble where it can barely field a competitive team.

This is a very similar approach to what San Antonio have and obviously what Vlade is trying to implement here. Now here are the basic key principles of the system

- System is built on a team first culture. There is no place for players with big egos who this they are the alpha dogs. It's a TEAM effort.
- The players have to be fundamentally sound and capable of doing many things on the court. There is no such a thing as a dedicated specialist. Everyone practices to be multi skilled player. Dribble, pass, shoot, set screens, roll, rebound, read the defenses, move the ball, find the open men.
- A group of young players is identified and signed by the club (in NBA this will obviously have to be a draft)
- Those young players are not given big minutes in games initially to develop. On the contrary, the kids sit on the bench, work extensively in practices and learn of the veterans and they get a minute or two here and there and certainly not every game. Young players that don't fulfill the expectations of the team are moved on despite them being some of the most talented younsters in Europe. The whole package is taken into account and young core is identified to move forward with.
- Once players develop and prove they can handle their own against those very veterans in practice, they are integrated into the team in smaller roles and their roles increase once they become more and more comfortable. Mistakes are pointed out and not forgiven, that is why players get yanked for stupid mistakes (sometime this can get too physical.....see the clip of Vujosevic choking Bogdan and yanking him from the game because he didn't do what the coach asked for)
- Once those young players become core of the team, older players are phased out either to bench roles or moved on to other clubs.
- No matter at what stage the team is in, they go our to win every game. That continues to grow the culture and the system in place.
- Every player that has left the club has publicly said they owe their career to Partizan and that system. You had players signing from all over Europe to be developed into the best player they can be. Joffrey Lauvergne was cut buy his Spanish side mid season, signed with Partizan. Within a year he was their captain and moved on to Russia before moving to and currently playing in the NBA. He has a tattoo of Partizan's logo on his arm.

Take Bogdan for example. Year 1, he sat on the bench and barely played but he worked in practice, watched and learned from those veterans that were out there playing. Twice a day practices, sometimes 8-9 hour days. Year two, he was integrated into the line up with spot minutes. Year 3, he was a regular, playing solid minutes and by year 4 he was the star of the team and the rising start of European basketball.

Now while some of the logistics are different between the NBA and Europe, the principle of the system remains the same. Everything that Vlade and the Kings have done since trading Cousins has been in line with this system and vision. Bring in young players, work with them for a while. Determine if they are part of the core going forward or not. If they are, cut your ties and move on with those that you have chosen to move forward with. Keep adding young players each year and repeat the process.

People saw him draft two PGs and then sign Hill and say there is no plan. There has been a plan. The thing that has happened is that those young kids became ready quicker than what was originally planned which is actually a good thing. You are at a point where you are ready to move on that veteran and hand over the reigns.

To me there is a clear system. People have not seen the system in the NBA up close so they sensasionalize it and say Kings are a rabble, don't know what they are doing, throw the skirt over their heads and run around like headless chooks telling everyone Kings are dumb. I see the system and have recognized it from the very start. It is why I am NOT fussed by Joerger's rotations because I know what the team is trying to achieve. That is why I am not against the signings as I see purpose behind them.

Randolph would also have been moved but there is not a young kid ready to play extended minutes at his position. Come next season, don't be surprised if Randolph is bought out or traded half way through the year. I can see the outcry now but it still would have been a solid decision of what the Kings are trying to do. Its not popular with the crowd but there is a method behind it.

 

[bajaden]

I don't quite agree! Here is my reasoning why!

I come from the same country as Vlade and I follow the club that Vlade and Bogdan have grown at and gone onto bigger and better things. That club has been known as a production line of talented players that are not playing in Europe and the NBA. It has been like that until recent financial trouble where it can barely field a competitive team.

This is a very similar approach to what San Antonio have and obviously what Vlade is trying to implement here. Now here are the basic key principles of the system

- System is built on a team first culture. There is no place for players with big egos who this they are the alpha dogs. It's a TEAM effort.
- The players have to be fundamentally sound and capable of doing many things on the court. There is no such a thing as a dedicated specialist. Everyone practices to be multi skilled player. Dribble, pass, shoot, set screens, roll, rebound, read the defenses, move the ball, find the open men.
- A group of young players is identified and signed by the club (in NBA this will obviously have to be a draft)
- Those young players are not given big minutes in games initially to develop. On the contrary, the kids sit on the bench, work extensively in practices and learn of the veterans and they get a minute or two here and there and certainly not every game. Young players that don't fulfill the expectations of the team are moved on despite them being some of the most talented younsters in Europe. The whole package is taken into account and young core is identified to move forward with.
- Once players develop and prove they can handle their own against those very veterans in practice, they are integrated into the team in smaller roles and their roles increase once they become more and more comfortable. Mistakes are pointed out and not forgiven, that is why players get yanked for stupid mistakes (sometime this can get too physical.....see the clip of Vujosevic choking Bogdan and yanking him from the game because he didn't do what the coach asked for)
- Once those young players become core of the team, older players are phased out either to bench roles or moved on to other clubs.
- No matter at what stage the team is in, they go our to win every game. That continues to grow the culture and the system in place.
- Every player that has left the club has publicly said they owe their career to Partizan and that system. You had players signing from all over Europe to be developed into the best player they can be. Joffrey Lauvergne was cut buy his Spanish side mid season, signed with Partizan. Within a year he was their captain and moved on to Russia before moving to and currently playing in the NBA. He has a tattoo of Partizan's logo on his arm.

Take Bogdan for example. Year 1, he sat on the bench and barely played but he worked in practice, watched and learned from those veterans that were out there playing. Twice a day practices, sometimes 8-9 hour days. Year two, he was integrated into the line up with spot minutes. Year 3, he was a regular, playing solid minutes and by year 4 he was the star of the team and the rising start of European basketball.

Now while some of the logistics are different between the NBA and Europe, the principle of the system remains the same. Everything that Vlade and the Kings have done since trading Cousins has been in line with this system and vision. Bring in young players, work with them for a while. Determine if they are part of the core going forward or not. If they are, cut your ties and move on with those that you have chosen to move forward with. Keep adding young players each year and repeat the process.

People saw him draft two PGs and then sign Hill and say there is no plan. There has been a plan. The thing that has happened is that those young kids became ready quicker than what was originally planned which is actually a good thing. You are at a point where you are ready to move on that veteran and hand over the reigns.

To me there is a clear system. People have not seen the system in the NBA up close so they sensasionalize it and say Kings are a rabble, don't know what they are doing, throw the skirt over their heads and run around like headless chooks telling everyone Kings are dumb. I see the system and have recognized it from the very start. It is why I am NOT fussed by Joerger's rotations because I know what the team is trying to achieve. That is why I am not against the signings as I see purpose behind them.

Randolph would also have been moved but there is not a young kid ready to play extended minutes at his position. Come next season, don't be surprised if Randolph is bought out or traded half way through the year. I can see the outcry now but it still would have been a solid decision of what the Kings are trying to do. Its not popular with the crowd but there is a method behind it.

I agree with you on Vlade having a plan. I think people see what they want to see. It's the old the glass is half full or half empty. Vlade pretty much laid out what his plan was. Obviously, you have to adjust your plan along the way, because things unforeseen are going to happen. The Magic not picking up the option on Hezonja may have been one of those unforeseen things. Another might have been how few teams will have money this next offseason. So Vlade made moves to free up some money, and open a roster spot.

Of course I realize that there are people on this forum that think that Vlade is just big stupid yuck that's incapable of putting together a good team. That old broken English will get them every time. It's like the counterfeiters that accidentally printed a whole batch of 7 dollar bills. They came up with the idea to head to Mississippi to pawn them off on the stupid hayseeds down there. They decided to test the idea by going into a general store and asking the man behind the counter if he could make change for 7 dollar bill. He smiled and said no problem. Will a three and a four do?

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Agree with posters above—there has been a clear plan to institute a Serbian (or generally European) club culture. In addition to what is stated above, we use Reno much like the reserves would be used in Europe. I think it is one of, if not THE, most interesting and exciting projects in the NBA right now. One would think national media would be all over such an interesting project, but instead they make xenophobic comments....even Zach Lowe. Very sad.

I also think Jokic is part of the summer plans. I think we make a big run at signing him to a max offer sheet. From there, we’ll have to see.

 

[hrdboild]

To me there is a clear system. People have not seen the system in the NBA up close so they sensasionalize it and say Kings are a rabble, don't know what they are doing, throw the skirt over their heads and run around like headless chooks telling everyone Kings are dumb.

Of course I realize that there are people on this forum that think that Vlade is just big stupid yuck that's incapable of putting together a good team.

Wow, the level of respect given to the opposing viewpoint here is just staggering... There is a line of thinking that says you can't form a counter argument unless you can first articulate what the opposing argument actually is. Not everyone here thinks Vlade is an idiot. Not everyone here thinks he's God's gift to the NBA either. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I've never taken the point of view that Vlade doesn't have a plan. Every year I can see what the short-term plan is. I'm more upset that the plan changes every year. It's like investing in a company but pulling your money out the first time it drops a little in value and reinvesting it somewhere else. The significant gains come from sticking to one plan long enough to allow it to work. I have yet to see Vlade do that. Meanwhile he's losing capital with every transaction.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the quality of play I've seen from the team this year. Most of the kids seem to get it and they're playing a fun unselfish brand of basketball. I will defend the players on this team all day because to a man I think they're hard workers who want to get better. (I also think Dave Joerger gets a lot of undue ire simply because the actual quality of the roster doesn't match up with some fan's inflated expectations) That's all well and good but you still need talent to win in this league. San Antonio had a system but they also had a Hall of Fame big man in the middle. For better or worse Vlade is the guy that made the decision to jettison the only player who had a chance to elevate us out of lottery hell. This is in the background of every one of these discussions whether it's acknowledged or not. DeMarcus was ultimately traded on Vlade's watch. He put the target on his own back. Now he's got to live up to his promise and somehow replace that talent which is easier said than done.

With all due respect, the NBA is not the Euroleague. I can see evidence of a solid team culture elevating good teams to a higher level of performance but you still need the talent and therein lies the rub. This is a league where Michael Jordan won 6 championships (and would have won more if not for a tragedy in the family). It's also a league where no team has advanced to the Finals in the Eastern Conference in 7 years that didn't feature Lebron James. There is a very small elite group collecting all the trophies. If Vlade has a plan to acquire a super duper star than he'll earn my trust. Until that point I remain skeptical. We've been on the same tread mill for a long time already. Rotating the veterans every year and trying out a new crop of youngsters keeps the wheels turning but it doesn't actually make us competitive on any significant level.

 

[ParniValjak]

Wow, the level of respect given to the opposing viewpoint here is just staggering... There is a line of thinking that says you can't form a counter argument unless you can first articulate what the opposing argument actually is. Not everyone here thinks Vlade is an idiot. Not everyone here thinks he's God's gift to the NBA either. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I've never taken the point of view that Vlade doesn't have a plan. Every year I can see what the short-term plan is. I'm more upset that the plan changes every year. It's like investing in a company but pulling your money out the first time it drops a little in value and reinvesting it somewhere else. The significant gains come from sticking to one plan long enough to allow it to work. I have yet to see Vlade do that. Meanwhile he's losing capital with every transaction.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the quality of play I've seen from the team this year. Most of the kids seem to get it and they're playing a fun unselfish brand of basketball. I will defend the players on this team all day because to a man I think they're hard workers who want to get better. (I also think Dave Joerger gets a lot of undue ire simply because the actual quality of the roster doesn't match up with some fan's inflated expectations) That's all well and good but you still need talent to win in this league. San Antonio had a system but they also had a Hall of Fame big man in the middle. For better or worse Vlade is the guy that made the decision to jettison the only player who had a chance to elevate us out of lottery hell. This is in the background of every one of these discussions whether it's acknowledged or not. DeMarcus was ultimately traded on Vlade's watch. He put the target on his own back. Now he's got to live up to his promise and somehow replace that talent which is easier said than done.

With all due respect, the NBA is not the Euroleague. I can see evidence of a solid team culture elevating good teams to a higher level of performance but you still need the talent and therein lies the rub. This is a league where Michael Jordan won 6 championships (and would have won more if not for a tragedy in the family). It's also a league where no team has advanced to the Finals in the Eastern Conference in 7 years that didn't feature Lebron James. There is a very small elite group collecting all the trophies. If Vlade has a plan to acquire a super duper star than he'll earn my trust. Until that point I remain skeptical. We've been on the same tread mill for a long time already. Rotating the veterans every year and trying out a new crop of youngsters keeps the wheels turning but it doesn't actually make us competitive on any significant level.

No one here is disagreeing on the star part. Do you think that you don't need stars to win a Euroleague title?

Getting the franchise level guys is always going to be the challenging part. it was a challenging part for the Spurs as well but people forget just how successful their system has been over the two decades now. Of course you need your foundation and Kings are in the process of doing that.

Yes he traded Cousins and I have been as vocal about that as anyone. I am FAR from Vlade apologist. he has made some mistakes, some really big mistakes but because of those everyone here is willing to jump at the throat for anything that they don't agree with. Whether it is trades, signings, drafting, minute distribution, you name it. Everyone has their two cents worth to add.

Bottom line it, the culture and how you build that culture really is the same whether you are talking Europe, USA, China, Lebanon or woop woop. I think in time Fox can be a foundation piece (i.e. an all-star and possibly a franchise level PG). Vlade needs to find one or two more. Its either going to be via draft or via trade because there is no chance anyone of that caliber is signing with the Kings any time soon. This is essentially year 1 of the rebuild but because Kings have sucked for over a decade, people are impatient and want the quick fix or to get there quickly. Rebuilds don't work that way. Never have and never will. Players need time to mature and develop both as human beings and players. Just because people don't agree with the approach, it doesn't make it any less valid. To me the method is clear. People get fixated on 1st round picks in a crap draft and call for blood. Have we not learned anything with Ben McLemore? You need to realize when someone is not part of your vision and you move on. There is only limited time and effort you can put into someone before you need to decide whether they fit your vision or not. You recruit your players to fit your vision and not the other way around. SA moved away from Rodman because he did not fit into the culture and vision that they were building despite him being a HOF player. I am sure many of the SA fans complained at the time too.

To me it's clear that at least at this point in time, the core than Vlade and the coaches have identified to move forward with for the time being is Fox, Bogdanovic, Jackson, Giles, WCS, Buddy, Mason and Skal. I am sure that core will change as they add and take away from it. That core still needs quality to be added to it but its pretty clear that the kids are developing, learning and getting better as the season progresses. If you compare these players in week 1 of the season and now, they are all much improved. In order to remain as part of the core, they need to keep improving and buying into what we are trying to build.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Do we really need to re-litigate the Boogie trade again? I love Boogie, and I was crushed when he was traded. But, he is literally the most dominant big man to never make the playoffs per analytics. As in, big men like him should be in the playoffs almost irrespective of supporting cast.

Look, I’ll be the first to raise the BS flag on all the sunshine pumped at the Spurs. I agree, everything they are was built on the foundation of the most valuable #1 pick in the history of the lottery. Even other great #1 picks like Lebron would have had Pop fired about 6 times over, and then left anyway. But, culture matters. And they had that culture when Tim got there with guys like Avery Johnson, The Admiral, and Sean Elliot. They had chemistry and culture that was years in the making. Boogie is a tremendous young man off the court, but he’s a grind to work with everyday. We were going to be paying nearly half our cap to a guy who cannot attract other free agents; it was a losing proposition.

Vlade has had one plan the whole time. His mission statement was to make the first concerted effort to build around Boogie, find the best deal for Boogie if the initial effort was unsuccessful, and rebuild on team-oriented basketball with a ball movement offense. And here we are today in the midst of that rebuild.

 

[Kingsfan23]

In hindsight, the Boogie move, although poorly enacted, was needed.

If he signed the supermax extension here last summer (40 mil), which is I think when it would’ve been signed, the team forfeited their top ten protected pick (Fox), has no Buddy/JJ/Giles/Mason, and then treadmilled this team until his big/unconditioned frame gave way, this team would be toast

I wasn’t a fan of his game as it got further away from the basket, but the gamble on his health was also a reason for the trade

 

[hrdboild]

No one here is disagreeing on the star part. Do you think that you don't need stars to win a Euroleague title?

Getting the franchise level guys is always going to be the challenging part. it was a challenging part for the Spurs as well but people forget just how successful their system has been over the two decades now. Of course you need your foundation and Kings are in the process of doing that.

Yes he traded Cousins and I have been as vocal about that as anyone. I am FAR from Vlade apologist. he has made some mistakes, some really big mistakes but because of those everyone here is willing to jump at the throat for anything that they don't agree with. Whether it is trades, signings, drafting, minute distribution, you name it. Everyone has their two cents worth to add.

Bottom line it, the culture and how you build that culture really is the same whether you are talking Europe, USA, China, Lebanon or woop woop. I think in time Fox can be a foundation piece (i.e. an all-star and possibly a franchise level PG). Vlade needs to find one or two more. Its either going to be via draft or via trade because there is no chance anyone of that caliber is signing with the Kings any time soon. This is essentially year 1 of the rebuild but because Kings have sucked for over a decade, people are impatient and want the quick fix or to get there quickly. Rebuilds don't work that way. Never have and never will. Players need time to mature and develop both as human beings and players. Just because people don't agree with the approach, it doesn't make it any less valid. To me the method is clear. People get fixated on 1st round picks in a crap draft and call for blood. Have we not learned anything with Ben McLemore? You need to realize when someone is not part of your vision and you move on. There is only limited time and effort you can put into someone before you need to decide whether they fit your vision or not. You recruit your players to fit your vision and not the other way around. SA moved away from Rodman because he did not fit into the culture and vision that they were building despite him being a HOF player. I am sure many of the SA fans complained at the time too.

To me it's clear that at least at this point in time, the core than Vlade and the coaches have identified to move forward with for the time being is Fox, Bogdanovic, Jackson, Giles, WCS, Buddy, Mason and Skal. I am sure that core will change as they add and take away from it. That core still needs quality to be added to it but its pretty clear that the kids are developing, learning and getting better as the season progresses. If you compare these players in week 1 of the season and now, they are all much improved. In order to remain as part of the core, they need to keep improving and buying into what we are trying to build.

I agree with most of what you've written in this thread. But I'm not so sure we actually have a core yet. We have a roster, that's clear. And most of it is pretty young. A core implies you expect these players to be here for the next 5+ years and lead you into the playoffs. I do appreciate young players who are willing to learn. They did nothing to earn the burden of expectation heaped upon them by a decade plus of bad management and a decade long streak of losing seasons. But I'm also wary of unrealistic expectations because of all the young "up and coming stars" who've shuffled through for the last decade to disappointingly familiar result.

Fox is probably a part of our core. I don't know that anyone else actually is yet. Bogdan is the closest but he might just look great in comparison because he's the only guy left on the roster who is both (1) a first round talent and (2) still in his prime. I'm not going to write Giles into any long-term plan until he actually touches the court. This may just be fatigue at this point but if I were to add up all the supposed core players we've had here since the end of the Bibby/Christie/Stojakovic/Webber/Divac team it's well over 50 players. Half the guys you listed will most likely be gone before this team makes a playoff run.

I will be the first to admit that I don't know very much about the Euroleague. I believe you mentioned that there's no draft. Is there a salary cap or any kind of restriction on which players are available and how much you can pay them? The combination of the draft, guaranteed contracts, and restricted free agency in the NBA means the opportunities we have to improve our team by adding young talent is very limited. Vlade had to trade the #8 pick to get Bogdan for instance and then still had to wait and negotiate a contract. So I'm on board for building a system and plugging players into it, holding players accountable, bringing in veteran mentors. I'm cool with bringing the kids along slowly -- I even suggested we "red-shirt" all of our rookies in the future like we are with Giles this year. I'm 100% in favor of slowly building a foundation for success even if it takes us longer to get there because that's how you can sustain it for 20 years like San Antonio has. But...

Here's the key issue for me... first round picks are too important to throw them away like disposable razors. The NBA even created a rule to limit how much damage overzealous GMs can do to their teams by giving away first round picks. Those picks are the currency the league is built on. Cleveland drafts Lebron James and becomes relevant. They lose him and end up with 3 first overall picks which they use to acquire Kyrie Irving and eventually Kevin Love. They're forced to trade Kyrie but they get another lottery pick back. That allowed them to trade their other pick for much needed veteran depth which is already turning their season around. Without those picks they're a basement dweller like us. Maybe you can get away with blowing an occasional pick and some drafts are better than others but no team can afford to throw away a half dozen picks in as many years and that's exactly what we've managed to do. That's why DeMarcus is gone. This all comes down to asset management and unless the GM does a better job with that, nothing else they do is actually going to matter.

 

[sactowndog]

I don't quite agree! Here is my reasoning why!

I come from the same country as Vlade and I follow the club that Vlade and Bogdan have grown at and gone onto bigger and better things. That club has been known as a production line of talented players that are not playing in Europe and the NBA. It has been like that until recent financial trouble where it can barely field a competitive team.

This is a very similar approach to what San Antonio have and obviously what Vlade is trying to implement here. Now here are the basic key principles of the system

- System is built on a team first culture. There is no place for players with big egos who this they are the alpha dogs. It's a TEAM effort.
- The players have to be fundamentally sound and capable of doing many things on the court. There is no such a thing as a dedicated specialist. Everyone practices to be multi skilled player. Dribble, pass, shoot, set screens, roll, rebound, read the defenses, move the ball, find the open men.
- A group of young players is identified and signed by the club (in NBA this will obviously have to be a draft)
- Those young players are not given big minutes in games initially to develop. On the contrary, the kids sit on the bench, work extensively in practices and learn of the veterans and they get a minute or two here and there and certainly not every game. Young players that don't fulfill the expectations of the team are moved on despite them being some of the most talented younsters in Europe. The whole package is taken into account and young core is identified to move forward with.
- Once players develop and prove they can handle their own against those very veterans in practice, they are integrated into the team in smaller roles and their roles increase once they become more and more comfortable. Mistakes are pointed out and not forgiven, that is why players get yanked for stupid mistakes (sometime this can get too physical.....see the clip of Vujosevic choking Bogdan and yanking him from the game because he didn't do what the coach asked for)
- Once those young players become core of the team, older players are phased out either to bench roles or moved on to other clubs.
- No matter at what stage the team is in, they go our to win every game. That continues to grow the culture and the system in place.
- Every player that has left the club has publicly said they owe their career to Partizan and that system. You had players signing from all over Europe to be developed into the best player they can be. Joffrey Lauvergne was cut buy his Spanish side mid season, signed with Partizan. Within a year he was their captain and moved on to Russia before moving to and currently playing in the NBA. He has a tattoo of Partizan's logo on his arm.

Take Bogdan for example. Year 1, he sat on the bench and barely played but he worked in practice, watched and learned from those veterans that were out there playing. Twice a day practices, sometimes 8-9 hour days. Year two, he was integrated into the line up with spot minutes. Year 3, he was a regular, playing solid minutes and by year 4 he was the star of the team and the rising start of European basketball.

Now while some of the logistics are different between the NBA and Europe, the principle of the system remains the same. Everything that Vlade and the Kings have done since trading Cousins has been in line with this system and vision. Bring in young players, work with them for a while. Determine if they are part of the core going forward or not. If they are, cut your ties and move on with those that you have chosen to move forward with. Keep adding young players each year and repeat the process.

People saw him draft two PGs and then sign Hill and say there is no plan. There has been a plan. The thing that has happened is that those young kids became ready quicker than what was originally planned which is actually a good thing. You are at a point where you are ready to move on that veteran and hand over the reigns.

To me there is a clear system. People have not seen the system in the NBA up close so they sensasionalize it and say Kings are a rabble, don't know what they are doing, throw the skirt over their heads and run around like headless chooks telling everyone Kings are dumb. I see the system and have recognized it from the very start. It is why I am NOT fussed by Joerger's rotations because I know what the team is trying to achieve. That is why I am not against the signings as I see purpose behind them.

Randolph would also have been moved but there is not a young kid ready to play extended minutes at his position. Come next season, don't be surprised if Randolph is bought out or traded half way through the year. I can see the outcry now but it still would have been a solid decision of what the Kings are trying to do. Its not popular with the crowd but there is a method behind it.

Okay but accepting everything you say as true doesn’t explain why you would sign Hill, cut him 6 months later and not force Fox to show more ability to lead a team. I have some familiarity with Serbian coaching styles as my son has played for Dejan Udovicic for 4 years and I agree you have to earn your spot.

 

[sactowndog]

I agree with you on Vlade having a plan. I think people see what they want to see. It's the old the glass is half full or half empty. Vlade pretty much laid out what his plan was. Obviously, you have to adjust your plan along the way, because things unforeseen are going to happen. The Magic not picking up the option on Hezonja may have been one of those unforeseen things. Another might have been how few teams will have money this next offseason. So Vlade made moves to free up some money, and open a roster spot.

Of course I realize that there are people on this forum that think that Vlade is just big stupid yuck that's incapable of putting together a good team. That old broken English will get them every time. It's like the counterfeiters that accidentally printed a whole batch of 7 dollar bills. They came up with the idea to head to Mississippi to pawn them off on the stupid hayseeds down there. They decided to test the idea by going into a general store and asking the man behind the counter if he could make change for 7 dollar bill. He smiled and said no problem. Will a three and a four do?

So am I in the middle? LOL.... It seemed Vlade had no plan or foresight but I’m willing to admit Hezonja might have been an unforeseen factor that Vlade is making moves to take advantage.

 

[sactowndog]

Agree with posters above—there has been a clear plan to institute a Serbian (or generally European) club culture. In addition to what is stated above, we use Reno much like the reserves would be used in Europe. I think it is one of, if not THE, most interesting and exciting projects in the NBA right now. One would think national media would be all over such an interesting project, but instead they make xenophobic comments....even Zach Lowe. Very sad.

I also think Jokic is part of the summer plans. I think we make a big run at signing him to a max offer sheet. From there, we’ll have to see.

Jokic is a not until 2019. Nothing we did this year affected our ability to sign him.

 

[Joshoua]

Jokic is a not until 2019. Nothing we did this year affected our ability to sign him.

And I’m guessing he’ll be a restricted FA in 2019 too

 

[Joshoua]

And I’m guessing he’ll be a restricted FA in 2019 too

Never mind just checked he’ll be an Unrestricted that’s crazy. Man we need Fox to shine next year and let the connection of Vlade/Bogdan drag Jokic out of Denver. I’ll be rooting against Denver from here on out

 

[206Fan]

Jokic is a not until 2019. Nothing we did this year affected our ability to sign him.

And I’m guessing he’ll be a restricted FA in 2019 too

Jokic has a weird contract. The Nuggets have a 4th year option(next year) on Jokic. However, if they pick it up, then he becomes a UFA in 2019. So he can leave and sign with whatever team he desires.

However, if Denver declines his 4th year option, then he becomes a RFA for this year.

Seems like Denver will probably decline the option, and make him a RFA for this year's FA. They'll match max offers.

 

[ParniValjak]

I agree with most of what you've written in this thread. But I'm not so sure we actually have a core yet. We have a roster, that's clear. And most of it is pretty young. A core implies you expect these players to be here for the next 5+ years and lead you into the playoffs. I do appreciate young players who are willing to learn. They did nothing to earn the burden of expectation heaped upon them by a decade plus of bad management and a decade long streak of losing seasons. But I'm also wary of unrealistic expectations because of all the young "up and coming stars" who've shuffled through for the last decade to disappointingly familiar result.

Fox is probably a part of our core. I don't know that anyone else actually is yet. Bogdan is the closest but he might just look great in comparison because he's the only guy left on the roster who is both (1) a first round talent and (2) still in his prime. I'm not going to write Giles into any long-term plan until he actually touches the court. This may just be fatigue at this point but if I were to add up all the supposed core players we've had here since the end of the Bibby/Christie/Stojakovic/Webber/Divac team it's well over 50 players. Half the guys you listed will most likely be gone before this team makes a playoff run.

I will be the first to admit that I don't know very much about the Euroleague. I believe you mentioned that there's no draft. Is there a salary cap or any kind of restriction on which players are available and how much you can pay them? The combination of the draft, guaranteed contracts, and restricted free agency in the NBA means the opportunities we have to improve our team by adding young talent is very limited. Vlade had to trade the #8 pick to get Bogdan for instance and then still had to wait and negotiate a contract. So I'm on board for building a system and plugging players into it, holding players accountable, bringing in veteran mentors. I'm cool with bringing the kids along slowly -- I even suggested we "red-shirt" all of our rookies in the future like we are with Giles this year. I'm 100% in favor of slowly building a foundation for success even if it takes us longer to get there because that's how you can sustain it for 20 years like San Antonio has. But...

Here's the key issue for me... first round picks are too important to throw them away like disposable razors. The NBA even created a rule to limit how much damage overzealous GMs can do to their teams by giving away first round picks. Those picks are the currency the league is built on. Cleveland drafts Lebron James and becomes relevant. They lose him and end up with 3 first overall picks which they use to acquire Kyrie Irving and eventually Kevin Love. They're forced to trade Kyrie but they get another lottery pick back. That allowed them to trade their other pick for much needed veteran depth which is already turning their season around. Without those picks they're a basement dweller like us. Maybe you can get away with blowing an occasional pick and some drafts are better than others but no team can afford to throw away a half dozen picks in as many years and that's exactly what we've managed to do. That's why DeMarcus is gone. This all comes down to asset management and unless the GM does a better job with that, nothing else they do is actually going to matter.

There is no salary cap but Partizan and Serbian clubs in general are pretty strapped in terms of finances. Their yearly budget for the whole playing roster is lower than some bigger clubs play thier players. When they were in Euroleague, Partizan’s payroll was abou 1.5 million euros and most of that is allocated to American imports and veterans on the team. Youngsters get very low salary.

I agree that the core is changing and I agree on the value of pick, especially lottery picks. For now, that is our cor subject to change. I think Vlade has made a lot of mistakes. Pick swap with Philadelphia and giving up 2019 pick unprotected. I think Papagiannis and Richardson are bit of outliers because the quality of that draft is not anything to get excited about. I think in order to move forward you need to cut your losses when you see it’s not what you are after but I do agree that there is a a real need to make the draft picks count if we are ever to get out of this cellar.

 

[ParniValjak]

Okay but accepting everything you say as true doesn’t explain why you would sign Hill, cut him 6 months later and not force Fox to show more ability to lead a team. I have some familiarity with Serbian coaching styles as my son has played for Dejan Udovicic for 4 years and I agree you have to earn your spot.

Hill was a signing because we needed to have a veteran at each position. We could have kept Collision but it’s pretty clear that he was a leftover from previous regime and Vlade has cleared those out and wanted all the players he selected himself which I don’t blame him for.

Once it became apparent that Fox and Mason need minutes and are capable of performing, Hill was shopped and sent away. That’s all there really is to it. Cap flexibility and potential targets also could have played a part.

 

[John Galt]

People have not seen the system in the NBA up close so they sensasionalize it and say Kings are a rabble, don't know what they are doing, throw the skirt over their heads and run around like headless chooks telling everyone Kings are dumb.

I love you man - this made me spit milk thru my nose

 

[ParniValjak]

Jokic is a not until 2019. Nothing we did this year affected our ability to sign him.

I think because he was a 2nd round pick, if Denver decline his final year he becomes a RFA this year and if they pick up the team option, he is UFA in 2019. If they are smart, they will decline his option and sign him up to a new deal in the summer.

 

[kingsfan101]

Agree with posters above—there has been a clear plan to institute a Serbian (or generally European) club culture. In addition to what is stated above, we use Reno much like the reserves would be used in Europe. I think it is one of, if not THE, most interesting and exciting projects in the NBA right now. One would think national media would be all over such an interesting project, but instead they make xenophobic comments....even Zach Lowe. Very sad.

I also think Jokic is part of the summer plans. I think we make a big run at signing him to a max offer sheet. From there, we’ll have to see.

Let this project achieve something first. If that happens, attention will come. Right now, we are near the bottom of the standings, have the longest playoff drought, don't have a single all star, and unsure who our best player is. Perhaps lack of media attention is a good thing.

 

[206Fan]

There is no salary cap but Partizan and Serbian clubs in general are pretty strapped in terms of finances. Their yearly budget for the whole playing roster is lower than some bigger clubs play thier players. When they were in Euroleague, Partizan’s payroll was abou 1.5 million euros and most of that is allocated to American imports and veterans on the team. Youngsters get very low salary.

I agree that the core is changing and I agree on the value of pick, especially lottery picks. For now, that is our cor subject to change. I think Vlade has made a lot of mistakes. Pick swap with Philadelphia and giving up 2019 pick unprotected. I think Papagiannis and Richardson are bit of outliers because the quality of that draft is not anything to get excited about. I think in order to move forward you need to cut your losses when you see it’s not what you are after but I do agree that there is a a real need to make the draft picks count if we are ever to get out of this cellar.

Will Vlade's strategy work in the NBA? Both leagues are managed entirely different.

Here's one problem I saw with his strategy from the beginning. Without a franchise player, I don't think it was smart to put Fox behind George Hill on the depth chart. Fox wasn't able to showcase his entire talents. He was limited because he was playing SG instead of his natural PG position. In that time, Fox showed a lot of flashes, but would you really be able to crown a guy averaging 10pts 5rebs on 40% shooting as our future franchise player? I think the reason why they traded George Hill wasn't because they thought Fox was ready to take over the reign... it was because they wanted to see what Fox could actually do as a lead guard. They wanted to let a young PG play through his rookie mistakes. You can only do so much learning on the bench. I'm sure Hill's attitude was another reason for the Kings to trade him, but I see this as Vlade going "oh crap, maybe playing George Hill in front of Fox won't actually help us long-term"

We saw the same thing with Justin Jackson. Unlike Fox, he started the season, but the guy was getting yanked in and out of the rotation from left to right. We sat him behind Temple and Vince. However, now, we're seeing him get consistent and extended minutes. The coaches are letting him play through his mistakes. Frank's injury has forced Temple to play some minutes at backup PG, but we haven't seen JJ face any legitimate SFs outside of 3 or 4 games in this stretch. Another potential example of Vlade deciding to cut ends with some parts of his original plan of making JJ "earn it" or learn on the bench until he's ready.

I'm jut not sure if the European approach will work in the NBA. I'm not saying the NBA is time-based, but I do think NBA players develop at a different pace. It's extremely rare to see a 19 yearold put up anywhere near 16pts+ in Euroleague, but you see 19yearolds put up 16pts+ yearly in the NBA.

If I'm right about the Fox and Jackson scenarios, it could mean that Vlade is slightly going away from his initial plans, and maybe has started integrating more "traditional" NBA components to it.

It's a little ironic since we're talking about Hezonja who went through exactly what you described. They've decided to cut loose ends with him and not pick up his option...now he's playing the best ball of his career. I think cutting Papagiannis was the right choice though. Never saw him as an NBA player.

 

[bajaden]

Okay but accepting everything you say as true doesn’t explain why you would sign Hill, cut him 6 months later and not force Fox to show more ability to lead a team. I have some familiarity with Serbian coaching styles as my son has played for Dejan Udovicic for 4 years and I agree you have to earn your spot.

I think Hill was one of those things that looked good on paper, but just didn't work out in reality. It happens, and sometimes there's no way to predict in advance. But when it does happen, you have two choices. Try and cut your losses the best you can, or grit your teeth and live with it. I think the Kings saw a chance to cut their losses and took it. So if you want me or someone to say signing Hill was probably a mistake, I'll say it was probably a mistake. But when we signed him, I thought it was a great move, and so did a lot of people.

 

[bajaden]

Wow, the level of respect given to the opposing viewpoint here is just staggering... There is a line of thinking that says you can't form a counter argument unless you can first articulate what the opposing argument actually is. Not everyone here thinks Vlade is an idiot. Not everyone here thinks he's God's gift to the NBA either. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I've never taken the point of view that Vlade doesn't have a plan. Every year I can see what the short-term plan is. I'm more upset that the plan changes every year. It's like investing in a company but pulling your money out the first time it drops a little in value and reinvesting it somewhere else. The significant gains come from sticking to one plan long enough to allow it to work. I have yet to see Vlade do that. Meanwhile he's losing capital with every transaction.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the quality of play I've seen from the team this year. Most of the kids seem to get it and they're playing a fun unselfish brand of basketball. I will defend the players on this team all day because to a man I think they're hard workers who want to get better. (I also think Dave Joerger gets a lot of undue ire simply because the actual quality of the roster doesn't match up with some fan's inflated expectations) That's all well and good but you still need talent to win in this league. San Antonio had a system but they also had a Hall of Fame big man in the middle. For better or worse Vlade is the guy that made the decision to jettison the only player who had a chance to elevate us out of lottery hell. This is in the background of every one of these discussions whether it's acknowledged or not. DeMarcus was ultimately traded on Vlade's watch. He put the target on his own back. Now he's got to live up to his promise and somehow replace that talent which is easier said than done.

With all due respect, the NBA is not the Euroleague. I can see evidence of a solid team culture elevating good teams to a higher level of performance but you still need the talent and therein lies the rub. This is a league where Michael Jordan won 6 championships (and would have won more if not for a tragedy in the family). It's also a league where no team has advanced to the Finals in the Eastern Conference in 7 years that didn't feature Lebron James. There is a very small elite group collecting all the trophies. If Vlade has a plan to acquire a super duper star than he'll earn my trust. Until that point I remain skeptical. We've been on the same tread mill for a long time already. Rotating the veterans every year and trying out a new crop of youngsters keeps the wheels turning but it doesn't actually make us competitive on any significant level.

Well the first thing I'll say, is if the shoe fits, then wear it. However, I wasn't pointing the finger at you. Matter of fact I think most people on the forum respect Vlade. But if you don't think there are some that think he's not bright enough to be the GM, then your living in La La land. However, I think it's a very small group. I've always respected your opinion. I don't always agree with it, and I'm sure you don't always agree with mine. As far as Vlade's plan goes, I do think he has an overall blueprint of what he's trying to do. But as I said, nothing stays the same and you have to readjust along the way.

You may have you sights set on the summer of 2019, and suddenly you see an opportunity that might be there for you in the summer of 2018. So you make some moves that people might not understand at the time, but you do so with the idea of hopefully capitalizing on it. I have no way of proving it of course. It could just be a matter of realizing your mistake, and trying to move on from it. I certainly think that's the case with Papagiannis. He was a mistake to begin with, and with the league's new concept of what the modern center looks like, the mistake became more obvious.

You point out that we've been on this treadmill for a long time now. I agree, but to be fair to Vlade, he hasn't been. He's the new arrival, and he's not responsible for anything that proceeded him. I know that doesn't help in the patience dept, but facts are facts. I hate to go over old ground, but the evidence is that Vlade wanted to trade Cousins almost from the beginning and start over. Vivek had a different vision, and Vlade tried to do his bidding. He tried to bring in veteran players to support Cousins. Unfortunately it didn't work. This time around, the veteran players were brought in for an entirely different reason, and for the most part, I think it's worked. Not with win's, but with bringing along the young players

As for acquiring a star, I think you hope that one of maybe two of the players you draft will become a star. The Warriors are a good model. Yes, they did attract Kevin Durant, but they had already won a championship without him, and did it with homegrown stars. Sacramento isn't LA. If were to attract a big star, we need to be an attractive place to play. We have to look like a young team on the way up. You can't do that overnight, which is why Vlade singled out the summer of 2019. That's when players like Fox and Bog's etc. will have a couple of years experience, and we'll have over 60 mil in capspace.

There are a lot of if's in that scenario, but it is a plan, and for it to work, you have to stick with it until it's conclusion. That's something the team hasn't done in the last ten years. Or we can fire Vlade and Joerger and keep doing what we've been doing. Keep those revolving doors spinning.

 

[sactowndog]

I think Hill was one of those things that looked good on paper, but just didn't work out in reality. It happens, and sometimes there's no way to predict in advance. But when it does happen, you have two choices. Try and cut your losses the best you can, or grit your teeth and live with it. I think the Kings saw a chance to cut their losses and took it. So if you want me or someone to say signing Hill was probably a mistake, I'll say it was probably a mistake. But when we signed him, I thought it was a great move, and so did a lot of people.

I’m not even critical of signing Hill. His contract expired and was timed to be able to clear cap space when a number of top free agents like Leonard were coming onto the market. Selling now was giving that advantage away for nothing unless you needed the cap space to sign someone unexpected.

 

[sactowndog]

I think because he was a 2nd round pick, if Denver decline his final year he becomes a RFA this year and if they pick up the team option, he is UFA in 2019. If they are smart, they will decline his option and sign him up to a new deal in the summer.

Either way it’s the same answer. There is no opportunity to sign Jokic this year. If he is an RFA Denver will match.

 

[sactowndog]

There is no salary cap but Partizan and Serbian clubs in general are pretty strapped in terms of finances. Their yearly budget for the whole playing roster is lower than some bigger clubs play thier players. When they were in Euroleague, Partizan’s payroll was abou 1.5 million euros and most of that is allocated to American imports and veterans on the team. Youngsters get very low salary.

I agree that the core is changing and I agree on the value of pick, especially lottery picks. For now, that is our cor subject to change. I think Vlade has made a lot of mistakes. Pick swap with Philadelphia and giving up 2019 pick unprotected. I think Papagiannis and Richardson are bit of outliers because the quality of that draft is not anything to get excited about. I think in order to move forward you need to cut your losses when you see it’s not what you are after but I do agree that there is a a real need to make the draft picks count if we are ever to get out of this cellar.

I don’t disagree you need to cut your losses but getting rid of them now was pointless (unless you need space for Hezonja). And Vlade made two errors with Pappa: drafting him in the first place, and picking up his third year option.

 

[sactowndog]

Hill was a signing because we needed to have a veteran at each position. We could have kept Collision but it’s pretty clear that he was a leftover from previous regime and Vlade has cleared those out and wanted all the players he selected himself which I don’t blame him for.

Once it became apparent that Fox and Mason need minutes and are capable of performing, Hill was shopped and sent away. That’s all there really is to it. Cap flexibility and potential targets also could have played a part.

Again there is plenty about playing point guard Fox still has to learn even if you gave Fox and Mason the majority of the minutes. I was okay with the plan. I’m actually okay with any plan the Kings commit to longer than 6 months.