chris webber (do i need to say more?)

#1
http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/11210916p-12126702c.html

Tough Talk

Chris Webber declares that the Kings need to be stronger mentally; achieving that will be difficult, sports psychologists say

By Sam Amick -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 2:15 am PDT Monday, October 25, 2004


As offseason changes go, this one was bigger than the swapping of 7-foot centers.



It was more pertinent than the one-way trade talks of Peja Stojakovic, more compelling than Doug Christie's foot throbbing with plantar fasciitis.

Chris Webber, king of the Kings who were once called "Queens," wanted a rewiring of his team's happy-go-(un)lucky psyche.

It was time to get tough, to add a purple and white chip to their collective shoulder, take charges, maybe throw a few elbows and, for the love of Geoff Petrie, play consistent defense. Hoping to avoid a seventh straight postseason without a championship, Webber vowed to lead the charge.


"Anybody on the inside that knows this team ... knows we have a fun, relaxed attitude, which if you are winning, it's cool," Webber told The Bee in early August. "But we haven't won, so it's time to change something."

Getting tough, however, will be no easy task, say sports psychologists. Established professional athletes tend to be set in their ways, their personalities and skills often beyond dramatic reform. They are what they are, so to speak, with a lifetime of habits ingrained in their cerebral circuitry.

The Kings - with an average age of 27.8 and average length of NBA experience of 5.5 seasons among players on guaranteed or partially guaranteed contracts - are no exception.

"Usually that kind of thing doesn't work very well," said Michael Sachs, sports psychologist and kinesiology professor at Temple University and former president of the Association for the Advancement of Applied Sports psychology. "The problem there is that it's very difficult to change if the cast of characters remains the same. You need to bring someone in from the outside to stir the pot and get things going."

Exhibit A: the Detroit Pistons. After back-to-back 50-win seasons and playoff bow-outs, the Pistons added defensive-minded coach Larry Brown and resident bad boy Rasheed Wallace last season. The duo joined a cast already heavy in Motor City macho, from rebound machine Ben Wallace to gritty guard Chauncey Billups and a maturing Richard Hamilton. The new mix resulted in an NBA title, and Detroit has continued the trend by adding power forward Antonio McDyess this season.

Yet judging by the grit gene alone, the Kings seem to have moved backward. Aside from the addition of center Greg Ostertag during the offseason, their concoction is largely the same. Ostertag brings punch and punch lines from the Utah Jazz. He's a comic off the court and a rebounder on it.

Meanwhile, tough guy Anthony Peeler (Washington Wizards) and tough-talking Tony Massenburg (San Antonio Spurs) were not invited back. Peeler, to review, is infamous for his elbow punch to Kevin Garnett's jaw in last season's playoffs against Minnesota. Peeler was suspended for Game 7 of the Western Conference semifinals. Massenburg sang Webber's song late last season, the 250-pound forward calling the Kings "soft" as his playing time diminished and he was left off the playoff roster.

All of this, of course, came after the Kings let hard-nosed Jim Jackson go to Houston the previous offseason, losing the player who could score in flashes, play defense and hold his own in a street fight.

John Meyer, a Sacramento-based sports psychologist who works with the River Cats, said a personality change isn't as easy as tough talk.

"You almost have to bring someone in who's constituted that way," said Meyer, who's also a Kings season-ticket holder. "I don't know if you can change the existing horses."

And if those same horses don't like the plan to begin with? Beware the fractured locker room.

Patrick Cohn, a sports psychologist and president and founder of Peak Performance Sports in Orlando, Fla., said a disjointed effort is a sign of trouble, with the potential for derailing six years of consistent, if not ultimate, success.

By all accounts, chemistry has played a huge role in the Kings averaging 57.5 victories per season since 2000. Their locker room has been mostly harmonic, their stars aligned in close-knit friendships, keeping damaging in-fighting to a minimum.

Webber's stated new approach, however, could end the peace.

"Him coming out and saying that could further divide the team, separate that cohesion they already have," Cohn said. "Team leaders have to be careful about the accusations you make about the team. ... From a teamwork perspective, that could backfire, but on the other hand, it may be a call-out saying, We need to work together on this. That's something that can change with just the right type of coaching."

Meyer agreed that Webber's experiment could blow up, adding that Webber's reputation among his peers must be consistent with his message to have his desired effect.

"The danger is you begin to lose the personality, the makeup that's made them successful," Meyer said. "If you're trying to be something that you're not, it seems not to hold up. Things like chemistry can suffer.

"If teammates don't think of him as a hard-core rebounder, gritty guy, but he's appointed himself as that, there can be a credibility gap."

How much support Webber can gain also will factor in. Ostertag, for one, is a proponent. While with the Jazz, he "knew when I played the Kings I was going to have a good rebounding night." Now with Sacramento, he said he wouldn't mind seeing an attitude adjustment.

"Hopefully, everybody does get a mean streak," Ostertag said. "I think it'll make this team that much better, because they were already a really good team. ... Hopefully, I'll be able to take that stigma away a little bit."

But if Stojakovic is the norm, the internal cracking may soon begin.

Among fans, Stojakovic - and, ironically, Webber - are the two players most accused of being soft. But when asked about Webber's get-tough idea, Stojakovic seemed disinterested.

"Each player has his own opinion, and he can say whatever he wants," Stojakovic said. "We shouldn't give big promises (to be tough). We should go out there and play basketball. You step on the court, and you always give your best. You always play hard."

Coach Rick Adelman isn't a complete supporter, either, if only because he disagrees with the premise.

"I think Chris was talking about getting an attitude," Adelman said. "I don't buy into the thought that our team is not tough. I don't know how you win 58 games a year and compete like we did when we had injuries if you don't have some tough-mindedness on your team. ... I'm not focusing on that. I'm focusing on the fact that we have to do some things, like rebounding the ball better, taking charges, setting screens."

Webber may be missing the target, or he could be adding a missing component. It is, you could say, a tough call. "It's worth a shot," said Sachs, the Temple professor. "The take-it-easy approach hasn't worked for the last few years, so they may as well try this."
 
#2
its just a rehash from this summer. don't see the point in the bee bringing this all back up, i doubt there's a kings fan out there, or on this board, that has forgotten what chris said.
 
#3
I'm focusing on the fact that we have to do some things, like rebounding the ball better, taking charges, setting screens."
See, when I think of 'tougher' these are the types of things I am thinking of, not getting yourself suspended for a game 7 in the playoffs for throwing an elbow. IMO, the elbows should be thrown and the message sent early on in the season;)
 
#4
Here's the rest of the quotes from the bottom of the article.

<H3>Let's get serious
Star forward Chris Webber dropped a King-size challenge on his teammates this summer to toughen up. Webber said he wants major changes in the Kings' attitude, from their psyche to preparation to players accepting their roles. Here are some excerpts pertaining to the changes as described in an interview with The Bee's Martin McNeal in early August.


"I know how half the team was serious and half wasn't, and it worked because some guys needed to be calm. But you'd better believe my attitude, along with Mike (Bibby), Doug (Christie) and Bobby's (Jackson), will rule the locker room this year."


"I want to play with players like me. I want to play with dogs. I want to play with role players who will do their role - nothing more than their roles. ... Our locker room has been too lax for me ... for the results we're getting."


"Doug (Christie) and I had that passionate meeting (with the team), but I felt it was falling on people who were too cool. People who were scared. People that won't talk junk. People that won't make a challenge. It's that simple."


"A lot of teams are more mentally prepared than we are because they want it more. They have a chip on their shoulders. We don't have a chip on our shoulders that we had three years ago. It's a comfort zone."


"It's a mental adjustment, starting with me, not caring about the perception of me or how I interact in the locker room. I think one reason why some teams have been so good, say the Lakers, is because everybody just does their job. On our team, everybody is getting the freedom, but with freedom comes responsibility. And if you are not responsible with the freedom you are given, either don't play or go to another team."
</H3>
 
#5
My experience has been that tough guys don't flap their jaws like Chris Webber. When is the last time you heard something like this from Karl Malone or Ben Johnson? They are quiet. Wise guys and insecure guys do all the talking. It is a front. I am still worried about Webber's mouth. His speaches are public and completely unnecessary. I think he is trying to psyche himself up. Peja is right. Toughness must start on the court, not is the press room.
 
#7
quick dog said:
My experience has been that tough guys don't flap their jaws like Chris Webber. When is the last time you heard something like this from Karl Malone or Ben Johnson? They are quiet. Wise guys and insecure guys do all the talking. It is a front. I am still worried about Webber's mouth. His speaches are public and completely unnecessary. I think he is trying to psyche himself up. Peja is right. Toughness must start on the court, not is the press room.
Malone never won a title either......
 
#8
Kingsgurl said:
Here's the rest of the quotes from the bottom of the article.

"It's a mental adjustment, starting with me, not caring about the perception of me or how I interact in the locker room. I think one reason why some teams have been so good, say the Lakers, is because everybody just does their job. On our team, everybody is getting the freedom, but with freedom comes responsibility. And if you are not responsible with the freedom you are given, either don't play or go to another team."
I agreed with all the things Webber said. The only part missing was that he was not taking any blame on himself. Its really good that he is doing that now. But I also think that he shouldn't be saying all these things in front of the press. Locker room talk is what it is. It should be confined to the team-mates.
 
#10
quick dog said:
My experience has been that tough guys don't flap their jaws like Chris Webber. When is the last time you heard something like this from Karl Malone or Ben Johnson? They are quiet. Wise guys and insecure guys do all the talking. It is a front. I am still worried about Webber's mouth. His speaches are public and completely unnecessary. I think he is trying to psyche himself up. Peja is right. Toughness must start on the court, not is the press room.
Amen.

That pretty much sums up everything I was going to say, only a lot shorter and calmer.

And besides, when you look into Webber's past and the reliability of his words and the corresponding actions, hope is lost.
 
#11
peja16 said:
Amen.

That pretty much sums up everything I was going to say, only a lot shorter and calmer.

And besides, when you look into Webber's past and the reliability of his words and the corresponding actions, hope is lost.
Hope is not lost when an individual has been unable to accomplish something (but has still not lost the sight of it) , but it is when when someone says that he can't do it and runs from the challenges that face him.

I would rather go with limping dog than with a healthy sheep.
 
T

Tim Roche

Guest
#12
Chris:

Looking like a dog
Acting like a dog
talking like a dog
don't make you a dog!

Just play ball.......Something you do very well, and until your ready to chin up with Carl and Kevin, leave the tough talk to someone who's earned it.
 
#13
bibbyweb said:
Hope is not lost when an individual has been unable to accomplish something (but has still not lost the sight of it) , but it is when when someone says that he can't do it and runs from the challenges that face him.

I would rather go with limping dog than with a healthy sheep.
?

That doesn't really say anything.

But if you're suggesting Webber is being courageous by stepping up to the plate, it should be pointed out that he's been in this league for 10+ years, had numerous championship opportunities with stellar teammates, made a lot of big speeches and promises, and yet accomplished nothing (relative to others).

But no, this time it's different! :rolleyes:

Chris:

Looking like a dog
Acting like a dog
talking like a dog
don't make you a dog!

Just play ball.......Something you do very well, and until your ready to chin up with Carl and Kevin, leave the tough talk to someone who's earned it.
Definitely... Although I'd take Kevin off that list and add Tim. He talks less, but is clearly the more dominant and proven championship player. It's been said by his teammates that Tim is so competitive he can't sleep the night of losses, and can't stop reminiscing about what happened. And yet he never utters a word to the media, or questions his teammates, he just goes out and wins.

He's had worse teammates in SA than Webber has had here, and yet has managed to make far better use of them. He's never publicly complained about their incompetence, but rather found ways to better himself, and make up for their weaknesses. That's a champion.
 
#14
quick dog said:
My experience has been that tough guys don't flap their jaws like Chris Webber. When is the last time you heard something like this from Karl Malone or Ben Johnson? They are quiet. Wise guys and insecure guys do all the talking. It is a front. I am still worried about Webber's mouth. His speaches are public and completely unnecessary. I think he is trying to psyche himself up. Peja is right. Toughness must start on the court, not is the press room.
I'm assuming you meant Malone and Ben WALLACE, not Ben Johnson...we dont need our guys shooting up, now, do we??*L*
 
W

Whit Eboy

Guest
#15
Please

quick dog said:
My experience has been that tough guys don't flap their jaws like Chris Webber. When is the last time you heard something like this from Karl Malone or Ben Johnson? They are quiet. Wise guys and insecure guys do all the talking. It is a front. I am still worried about Webber's mouth. His speaches are public and completely unnecessary. I think he is trying to psyche himself up. Peja is right. Toughness must start on the court, not is the press room.
Excuse me, are u saying peja was tough on the court because he kept quiet?

I love this game, and I like this joke.
 
#17
peja16 said:
?

That doesn't really say anything.
Sorry for not being clear, but I thought that people on this board would be able to get what I meant to say. What I meant was that I would rather go with a player, even if he is flawed, who has a will to win it for the Kings, rather than a player who has given up hopes and is all but looking for a way out.

But if you're suggesting Webber is being courageous by stepping up to the plate, it should be pointed out that he's been in this league for 10+ years, had numerous championship opportunities with stellar teammates, made a lot of big speeches and promises, and yet accomplished nothing (relative to others).

But no, this time it's different! :rolleyes:


Definitely... Although I'd take Kevin off that list and add Tim. He talks less, but is clearly the more dominant and proven championship player. It's been said by his teammates that Tim is so competitive he can't sleep the night of losses, and can't stop reminiscing about what happened. And yet he never utters a word to the media, or questions his teammates, he just goes out and wins.
Firstly, about Webber not accomplishing anything, now that's a really strong statement, a rather baised and unjust one. He has definitely been amongst the very best before the injury. What he has not got is a championship ring.
And even when you say that he has not accomplished anything, you have to put in the words relative to others. And when the others compared are Tim Duncan and KG, I think that is a pretty good achievement.

I agree that some of the things he has said and done are definitely not commendable, but then who is perfect? And I see more than a few players who have commited more heinous crimes including sexual assualts, manslaughter and from basketball point of view breaking up the teams, but have been forgiven by their fans right away.

He's had worse teammates in SA than Webber has had here, and yet has managed to make far better use of them. He's never publicly complained about their incompetence, but rather found ways to better himself, and make up for their weaknesses. That's a champion.
Now Duncan not complaining abt his team-mates is a selective perception from your part. Duncan had crticised Tony Parker in front of the media about his inconsistancy on the floor a year or so back. The only difference was that Parker took it the right way. All Webber did was to say that he wanted his team to play with an attitude, get more physical (thats my interpretation). He had not even named anyone in particular. But his remarks were interpreted differently and were (supposedly) responded with a trade demand (which might have other reasons as well).

I still go with the limping dog....
 
#18
Tim Roche said:
Chris:

Looking like a dog
Acting like a dog
talking like a dog
don't make you a dog!

Just play ball.......Something you do very well, and until your ready to chin up with Carl and Kevin, leave the tough talk to someone who's earned it.
First of all Welcome, since this you first post. Good to see new people around.
Nice poem, just like to add a line:
trying to be a dog.

And i suppose that you mean Karl Malone when you say Carl? Just asking because I already had a embarassing event with Pistol Pete:eek: .

One question though. Why does Webber not have the right to talk tough? Agreed that he has been soft at times. But after being of the principal reasons to take a team from virtual anonimity to a perpetual playoff contention, with a really good shot at the championship, I think he does have a right to talk abt it and ask his team-mates to develop one of the most important aspects that has been lacking in their games.
 
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#19
piksi's probably right, anything I say now is probably just repeating myself from all my other anti-Webb posts anyway ;) . I'll reply to bibbyweb, and split.

Sorry for not being clear, but I thought that people on this board would be able to get what I meant to say. What I meant was that I would rather go with a player, even if he is flawed, who has a will to win it for the Kings, rather than a player who has given up hopes and is all but looking for a way out.
Gotcha. And yes, Peja is clearly looking for a way out, but maybe he's looking for a way out of Sacramento, not a way out of championship pressure. Maybe he is seeking that championship opportunity, and doesn't see it here.

Firstly, about Webber not accomplishing anything, now that's a really strong statement, a rather baised and unjust one.
I know, that's why I said 'relative to others'. In comparison to the average player, he's accomplished alot and is an amazing player, either at an individual level, team level, or both, depending on who you ask. In comparison to those with similar abilities, circumstances, and opportunities, he underachieves. That's what I meant.

I agree that some of the things he has said and done are definitely not commendable, but then who is perfect?
Well, yeah, but that's not really the point.

And I see more than a few players who have commited more heinous crimes including sexual assualts, manslaughter and from basketball point of view breaking up the teams, but have been forgiven by their fans right away.
Ray Lewis was charged with double homicide, then came back to be the team's MVP and superbowl MVP through a championship run. Then the fans loved him again... and besides, he was acquitted

Duncan had crticised Tony Parker in front of the media about his inconsistancy on the floor a year or so back.
I don't remember the quote or the context, maybe I'm wrong.

But this is also about crediblity. Duncan was 1st-team All-NBA in his first year and won a championship in his 2nd. He accomplished before he spoke, and when he did criticize (Ill take your word for it), Im sure it was a rare act, and porved purposeful, and maybe was a reflection of the team's problem with Parker as well.

And Parker isn't known for being the greatest teammate, the Kidd incident comes to mind where he pissed off the Spurs organization, and his selfish play as a French international.

The only difference was that Parker took it the right way. All Webber did was to say that he wanted his team to play with an attitude, get more physical (thats my interpretation). He had not even named anyone in particular.
Is it the responsibility of Webber's teammates to take his criticism the right way? And how does it help to make vague criticisms about the team that had the best record in the league before you returned, and then crashed-and-burned afterwards?

Doesn't his credibility deserve to be questioned?
 
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#20
I don't see any new comments from Webber in this article. A few quotes from Tag, Peja and Adelman because the muck raking media is trolling for comments. Now they had to go to the sports shrinks to get an opinion. I'm all for Webber doing all his talking on the court, but there is really nothing to get excited over this "piece" of work.
 
#21
peja16 said:
piksi's probably right, anything I say now is probably just repeating myself from all my other anti-Webb posts anyway ;) . I'll reply to bibbyweb, and split.



Gotcha. And yes, Peja is clearly looking for a way out, but maybe he's looking for a way out of Sacramento, not a way out of championship pressure. Maybe he is seeking that championship opportunity, and doesn't see it here.



I know, that's why I said 'relative to others'. In comparison to the average player, he's accomplished alot and is an amazing player, either at an individual level, team level, or both, depending on who you ask. In comparison to those with similar abilities, circumstances, and opportunities, he underachieves. That's what I meant.



Well, yeah, but that's not really the point.



Ray Lewis was charged with double homicide, then came back to be the team's MVP and superbowl MVP through a championship run. Then the fans loved him again... and besides, he was acquitted

What convicted players are you talking about? Lewis was acwuitted, as was Kobe. Scum like Ruben Patterson and I believe Kurt Thomas aren't beloved or forgiven.



I don't remember the quote or the context, maybe I'm wrong.

But this is also about crediblity. Duncan was 1st-team All-NBA in his first year and won a championship in his 2nd. He accomplished before he spoke, and when he did criticize (Ill take your word for it), Im sure it was a rare act, and porved purposeful, and maybe was a reflection of the team's problem with Parker as well.

And Parker isn't known for being the greatest teammate, the Kidd incident comes to mind where he pissed off the Spurs organization, and his selfish play as a French international.



Is it the responsibility of Webber's teammates to take his criticism the right way? And how does it help to make vague criticisms about the team that had the best record in the league before you returned, and then crashed-and-burned afterwards?

Doesn't his credibility deserve to be questioned?
I could reply to each and everything you have just said. But, as piksi pointed out its the same old thing repeating all over again.
Just would like to say this: Just try to play harder and win a championship and not hope that you can win one with a team like BULLS.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#22
So the Bee drags in another writer to rehash the same old tired points?

A lot has happened since Chris made those comments. I would prefer to look to the now and the future instead of continuing to dwell on something that was deeply debated in the press and on message boards while the athletes pretty much denied having problems with it...

The Bee must be really desperate. Do notice that it's not one of the regular sports people; this is a "Bee staff writer" - probably the only one left who HADN'T already chimed in on the topic.

If you look at current actions and interactions between the team members, I think you can gather more from that than any second-, third-, fourth- or even fifth-guessing of something Webber said in August that was taken out of context by some media, interpreted and re-interpreted so many times as people tried to find their own little nuances, etc. that his original comments have long since faded away.

I would also like to know when the quotes from the team-mates were obtained. But that might spoil the whole effect of this "remade" non-story...
 
#24
This, to me, is the most interesting discussion topic coming from Webber's comments. Will his "new attitude" proclamation help or hurt the team? Can players change their attitude? Which teammates support what he says, on which teammates will it backfire, and which teammates couldn't care less?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#25
If it had been done a couple of months ago, uolj, I might tend to agree. However, there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then and the writer takes NONE of that into consideration...IMHO.

In a recent article, Webber was asked - again - about the team chemistry.

I don't even want to get into that, but you can quote me on this. Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear.
At this point, I'm ready to judge the team chemistry by what I actually see on the court. I don't care if they hate each other privately; I don't care if they've scatched each other's names off their Christmas lists; I don't care if they no longer want to spend time off the court together.

I think the team chemistry is going to be fine. If anything, I think the outlandish comments by some "experts" and some media hacks have drawn the guys closer together, as they realize it is - bottom line - pretty much an "us against them" situation in that their comments will always be twisted to fit whatever agenda the writer may have. That, unfortunately, is the state of journalism today. It's not about the facts; it's about the spin...

Right now, having watched a couple of games and watched carefully to detect hidden anxiety, etc. I think the team is coming together. Pedja, Brad and Chris - the most common stars in the KIngs soap opera - seem to be either getting along quite well OR they may have second careers ahead of them if this basketball thing doesn't pan out.

;)
 
#27
I don't understand why people still metion Webber with KG and Duncan in the same sentence (here, I did it too). I'm not sure that post-injury Webber is even at the level of people like Carlos Boozer or Amare Stoudamire.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#28
Well the team definatly has atougher presence with Bard on the court and I think Songolia brings some of that as well. What remais to be seen is how hard they play during the season game in game out. By hard I mean style of play not effort. Peeler was hard nosed but thugish and T-Mass was hard with no skills, neither brought much with them or took much from the team when they left. Miller on the other hand gives hard fouls, plays no nonesense and does not take crap, BUT he has the presence of mind not to get taken out of the game due to his emotions/temper... great mix.

What I would like to see is for the Kings front line to play more like Detroit and make opponets pay for going to the glass, and treat every rebound and loose ball like starving pitbulls after a piece of meat. We are seeing some of that in the preseaosn with Evans and Daniels paly and of course both Darius and Brad hit the floor on a regualr basis. the out look is good but the one big man I actuly question when it comes to giveng hard fouls and chaseing loose balls is Webber him self. I hope as he trust his body more he will use it more... he certainly did a few years ago. DC and Bobby have made their reps and paly hard D, and Bibby adn Pedja? Well thats another story, but lets see what they bring when the season starts. Bibby's beard/chin strap is a nice start at looking tough.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#29
LMM said:
i'm sorry i posted this..
Nothing to be sorry about, LMM... It's not the messenger's fault. ;)

There are a couple of interesting statements in the article, but I just question why it comes up NOW - and not in September or earlier this month, before the guys had actually returned to Sacramento and had a chance to speak face-to-face about any issues they might have to talk about...

sloter - Of course there are still questions about how effective Webber will be and how much he'll be able to contribute. There are some people who have those same questions about Pedja, Doug, and even Ostertag.

The difference IMHO is that, like him or not, Chris Webber is an elite PF - one of a small cadre of players who can be truly considered among the best at their position. I think he's shown already that he's able to perform at a high level...and that's just in pre-season. Whether he's able to maintain that type of performance on a consistent basis is what we'll all be waiting to see.