Fox AND Haliburton??

Fox and Hali ceiling is....

  • Contenders

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • Perennial Playoff lock

    Votes: 9 18.8%
  • First round fodder/Play-in chaser

    Votes: 22 45.8%
  • 10th pick treadmill

    Votes: 10 20.8%
  • Tanktacular

    Votes: 2 4.2%

  • Total voters
    48
#61
With Fox it’s relatively simple: he needs to get back above 25 ppg and as a cornerstone he needs to be averaging 25-30 over the next 3-5 years. That puts him somewhere in Dame territory scoring wise. Without the defense or huge 3 point threat the raw scoring matters so much more.

getting to 25 last year at a super young age is both hugely promising but also reminiscent of the Reke ROY campaign, with the whole org pushing to pump up his scoring numbers even after the season was lost, then him getting shut down with covid late which locked up the gaudy averages

it’s really not super complicated with him, he can be a top 3 player attacking the rim and could probably be the best downhill scoring threat in the nba. But that’s pretty much the entirety of what he brings so if you’re building around him he’d better be ultra elite and getting you 28 per night to make it worth it
 
#62
With Fox it’s relatively simple: he needs to get back above 25 ppg and as a cornerstone he needs to be averaging 25-30 over the next 3-5 years. That puts him somewhere in Dame territory scoring wise. Without the defense or huge 3 point threat the raw scoring matters so much more.

getting to 25 last year at a super young age is both hugely promising but also reminiscent of the Reke ROY campaign, with the whole org pushing to pump up his scoring numbers even after the season was lost, then him getting shut down with covid late which locked up the gaudy averages

it’s really not super complicated with him, he can be a top 3 player attacking the rim and could probably be the best downhill scoring threat in the nba. But that’s pretty much the entirety of what he brings so if you’re building around him he’d better be ultra elite and getting you 28 per night to make it worth it
That sort of style only worked briefly with Westbrook in OKC for a few years and that was in large part to him at the time having an insane motor (I doubt it was all "natural") which Fox does not have. John Wall did it somewhat but he was a way better playmaker and defender. Fox scoring 25-28ppg means that the team would be just as good with Delone Wright and CoJo as the starting PG as was proven the past few years. As bad as many contracts have been made by the Kings recently Fox getting 32mil per year or whatever he's getting might be the worst of all time (for the Kings) unless they can move him.
 
#63
That sort of style only worked briefly with Westbrook in OKC for a few years and that was in large part to him at the time having an insane motor (I doubt it was all "natural") which Fox does not have. John Wall did it somewhat but he was a way better playmaker and defender. Fox scoring 25-28ppg means that the team would be just as good with Delone Wright and CoJo as the starting PG as was proven the past few years. As bad as many contracts have been made by the Kings recently Fox getting 32mil per year or whatever he's getting might be the worst of all time (for the Kings) unless they can move him.
On the flipside Fox isn't nearly as capable of making game altering mistakes or glory hogging like Westbrook. I still think you have to finally build a team that isn't as weak on the wing. I don't care who you build around you can't do that right now. It's like competing in a league that goes through Shaq and Kobe and having no centers with size or size at SG. Give him shooters and size defensively that can switch and then see. Putting a team of big PF/C's and PG's around him is stupidity that has nothing to do with any sort of plan and that's the problem.
 
#64
We haven’t tried building anything yet, so i don’t really see how anyone can say they’re 100% certain Haliburton and Fox would be a poor fit or bad to build around. It’s just unfortunate that our ownership group doesn’t seem to know or care much about basketball. That’s how it feels, anyway.
 
#65
On the flipside Fox isn't nearly as capable of making game altering mistakes or glory hogging like Westbrook. I still think you have to finally build a team that isn't as weak on the wing. I don't care who you build around you can't do that right now. It's like competing in a league that goes through Shaq and Kobe and having no centers with size or size at SG. Give him shooters and size defensively that can switch and then see. Putting a team of big PF/C's and PG's around him is stupidity that has nothing to do with any sort of plan and that's the problem.
This!!
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#66
We haven’t tried building anything yet, so i don’t really see how anyone can say they’re 100% certain Haliburton and Fox would be a poor fit or bad to build around. It’s just unfortunate that our ownership group doesn’t seem to know or care much about basketball. That’s how it feels, anyway.
For real.

Hard to judge a Fox/Hali pairing when we've had completely incompetent coaching and a roster full of softies, dummies, and undersize-ies around them.

But this team does do everything arse backwards, so I'm sure we'll get better supporting players for Fox in a return on a Fox trade or something.

... I've given up on us ever having competent coaching.
 
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#67
For real.

Hard to judge a Fox/Hali pairing when we've had completely incompetent coaching and a roster full of softies, dummies, and undersize-ies around them.

But this team does do everything arse backwards, so I'm sure we'll get better supporting players for Fox in a return on a Fox trade or something.

... I've given up on us ever having competent coaching.
Haliburton and Fox aren't a perfect fit for various reasons but there is nothing about them that says they can't be a fit together. They might not be 36 mpg players that can play all their minutes side by side, but that's the one area where them both being able to run offense is a positive. They can continue to run that Adelman style rotation where you sub one out early so the other can keep things going then sub the other in for the other later. It's the denial of league trend that is hurting the most. The Kings don't have any talent that is capable of being someone the league shapes itself around, so therefore, you have to play into the trends. The talent is there, and this isn't a team getting blown out game after game, that shows you that ignoring of the wing issues that some of us were being annoying about this summer, and not building a team around some specific vision relating to modern basketball is killing them. The little things are adding up.
 
#68
This isn’t tennis or golf. It’s a team sport.
I‘m infinitely trying to drill this into people on an NFL message board I frequent. There is a complete lack of understanding how team sports operate (by the average fan), which I largely attribute to media/social media coverage.

Football is the ultimate team sport where 1, even a core of 3-4 star players can’t win by themselves. Basketball is easier for 1-3 star players to win, but even then it’s still dependent upon how elite each of the star players are and also how good the supporting cast and coaching is.

For instance, the big 3 of Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and LBJ had to rely upon a clutch Ray Allen 3 pointer against SA to avoid losing 3 out of the 4 Finals they appeared in. And w/o the steady play of the likes of Udonis Haslem, Mario Chalmers and Shane Battier they may have ended up with zero titles. Despite having 3 stars.

That Spoelstra guy is a pretty decent coach too.

It’s a “team” sport.
 
#69
Haliburton and Fox aren't a perfect fit for various reasons but there is nothing about them that says they can't be a fit together. They might not be 36 mpg players that can play all their minutes side by side, but that's the one area where them both being able to run offense is a positive. They can continue to run that Adelman style rotation where you sub one out early so the other can keep things going then sub the other in for the other later. It's the denial of league trend that is hurting the most. The Kings don't have any talent that is capable of being someone the league shapes itself around, so therefore, you have to play into the trends. The talent is there, and this isn't a team getting blown out game after game, that shows you that ignoring of the wing issues that some of us were being annoying about this summer, and not building a team around some specific vision relating to modern basketball is killing them. The little things are adding up.
I wonder what kind of talent would lend to the league shaping itself around.

Another Shaquille O'Neal ?

This is a legitimate question.

Clearly now it's about switch, go small, and bomb 3's, surely it could change at some point I would assume ?
 
#70
For those, who think Ben's value is dropping: "Sacramento and Atlanta have been among the most engaged recently in talks on Simmons, sources said, but team officials with those organizations doubt the 76ers will lower the price threshold for Simmons before Feb. 10."

I'm not a fan of trading Hali + two picks for Simmons. Hali > Collins (contract, partly--my assumption): "For Simmons, the 76ers have asked the Kings for guard Tyrese Haliburton and multiple first-round picks, and asked for a package around John Collins and multiple first-round picks from the Hawks along with Atlanta taking on Tobias Harris, multiple sources tell The Athletic."

Fox's long term ceiling is implied here (shoulda pulled that trigger over the summer, Monte): "Over the past seven months, the 76ers have discussed deals around players like Fox, Indiana’s Domantas Sabonis and Toronto’s Pascal Siakam, but organizationally they have felt that those players were not championship-altering, perfect fits on the roster. The 76ers believe in Tyrese Maxey’s long-term ability at point guard, have Harris as their starting power forward and Joel Embiid manning the center position."

My opinon: there's still a path there where Fox + filler + a first for Ben and Harris. If the price comes down. Big if.

https://theathletic.com/3088096/202...say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/?redirected=1
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#71
I wonder what kind of talent would lend to the league shaping itself around.

Another Shaquille O'Neal ?

This is a legitimate question.

Clearly now it's about switch, go small, and bomb 3's, surely it could change at some point I would assume ?
trends in the NBA change all the time. It just depends who drafts and builds a winner around the next mega star player that year in and year out makes NBA Finals appearances and/or conference finals appearances. It's a copy cat league but not every team has the privilege to have a Giannis, Curry or LeBron.
 
#72
I wonder what kind of talent would lend to the league shaping itself around.

Another Shaquille O'Neal ?

This is a legitimate question.

Clearly now it's about switch, go small, and bomb 3's, surely it could change at some point I would assume ?
My hope was that Zion would bring back some sort of pounding physical ball to the league, but so far, he's looking more and more like the next Larry Johnson in a bad way. Can't stay healthy.
 
#73
For those, who think Ben's value is dropping: "Sacramento and Atlanta have been among the most engaged recently in talks on Simmons, sources said, but team officials with those organizations doubt the 76ers will lower the price threshold for Simmons before Feb. 10."

I'm not a fan of trading Hali + two picks for Simmons. Hali > Collins (contract, partly--my assumption): "For Simmons, the 76ers have asked the Kings for guard Tyrese Haliburton and multiple first-round picks, and asked for a package around John Collins and multiple first-round picks from the Hawks along with Atlanta taking on Tobias Harris, multiple sources tell The Athletic."

Fox's long term ceiling is implied here (shoulda pulled that trigger over the summer, Monte): "Over the past seven months, the 76ers have discussed deals around players like Fox, Indiana’s Domantas Sabonis and Toronto’s Pascal Siakam, but organizationally they have felt that those players were not championship-altering, perfect fits on the roster. The 76ers believe in Tyrese Maxey’s long-term ability at point guard, have Harris as their starting power forward and Joel Embiid manning the center position."

My opinon: there's still a path there where Fox + filler + a first for Ben and Harris. If the price comes down. Big if.

https://theathletic.com/3088096/202...say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/?redirected=1
It sounds more and more like Morey just wants his boy Harden. Anything else is just engagement.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#75
For those, who think Ben's value is dropping: "Sacramento and Atlanta have been among the most engaged recently in talks on Simmons, sources said, but team officials with those organizations doubt the 76ers will lower the price threshold for Simmons before Feb. 10."
Well, value can drop even if they refuse to acknowledge it. It just means they will sit on their player a lot longer until they become reasonable.
 
#76
I wonder what kind of talent would lend to the league shaping itself around.

Another Shaquille O'Neal ?

This is a legitimate question.

Clearly now it's about switch, go small, and bomb 3's, surely it could change at some point I would assume ?
The problem is even if you get the unicorn (Giannis paint beast, potentially Zion if he ever gets healthy), the clear best direction to build around them is as much spacing as possible and switchable athletic defenders.

It's just hard to see what changes 3>2.
 
#77
For those, who think Ben's value is dropping: "Sacramento and Atlanta have been among the most engaged recently in talks on Simmons, sources said, but team officials with those organizations doubt the 76ers will lower the price threshold for Simmons before Feb. 10."

I'm not a fan of trading Hali + two picks for Simmons. Hali > Collins (contract, partly--my assumption): "For Simmons, the 76ers have asked the Kings for guard Tyrese Haliburton and multiple first-round picks, and asked for a package around John Collins and multiple first-round picks from the Hawks along with Atlanta taking on Tobias Harris, multiple sources tell The Athletic."

Fox's long term ceiling is implied here (shoulda pulled that trigger over the summer, Monte): "Over the past seven months, the 76ers have discussed deals around players like Fox, Indiana’s Domantas Sabonis and Toronto’s Pascal Siakam, but organizationally they have felt that those players were not championship-altering, perfect fits on the roster. The 76ers believe in Tyrese Maxey’s long-term ability at point guard, have Harris as their starting power forward and Joel Embiid manning the center position."

My opinon: there's still a path there where Fox + filler + a first for Ben and Harris. If the price comes down. Big if.

https://theathletic.com/3088096/202...say-sixers-prefer-a-summer-deal/?redirected=1

So if I list my couch on ebay for $40,000 and no one buys it, but I insist for 8 months that I'm not coming down off my price. Is the value of my couch the same?
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#78
So if I list my couch on ebay for $40,000 and no one buys it, but I insist for 8 months that I'm not coming down off my price. Is the value of my couch the same?
There is, of course, a distinction between "value" and "price" that we ought to be careful about. The value of your couch has likely not changed significantly, and the price of the couch has not changed at all. The problem is that the value of the couch and the price of the couch are too misaligned for anyone to purchase it.
 
#79
So if I list my couch on ebay for $40,000 and no one buys it, but I insist for 8 months that I'm not coming down off my price. Is the value of my couch the same?
You and your time argument is just so sigh. I mean, Morey could’ve had Fox, Collins, Picks, Brogdon, and Grant…in different deals. But somehow Simmons value is deflating.
 
#80
Well, value can drop even if they refuse to acknowledge it. It just means they will sit on their player a lot longer until they become reasonable.
Max pain is this off-season. Ben has not lost a ton of $ and the Sixers haven’t lost a playoff game yet.
 
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Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#81
Max pain is this off-season. Ben has lost a ton of $ and the Sixers haven’t lost a playoff game yet.
That was kind of my point. Until there is additional pressure to be reasonable, Morey can keep asking for the moon and the stars, but he isn't getting it in a trade. He's going to have to become reasonable with his demands, and that looks like it's just going to take time for it to sink in.

The crazy value he and others have been pinning on a player with some pretty significant shortcomings/issues just isn't going to fly. This isn't LBJ or Kareem or Magic or Bird we are talking about here.
 
#82
That was kind of my point. Until there is additional pressure to be reasonable, Morey can keep asking for the moon and the stars, but he isn't getting it in a trade. He's going to have to become reasonable with his demands, and that looks like it's just going to take time for it to sink in.

The crazy value he and others have been pinning on a player with some pretty significant shortcomings/issues just isn't going to fly. This isn't LBJ or Kareem or Magic or Bird we are talking about here.
You’re combining two unrelated things to try to prove your point. Sure, a trade will be made when both parties (Ben and the Sixers) have both actually incurred some real pain. As for the flawed point, that’s an opinion of yours that you’re entitled to.
 
#83
So if I list my couch on ebay for $40,000 and no one buys it, but I insist for 8 months that I'm not coming down off my price. Is the value of my couch the same?
As an aside - I placed an old couch on Marketplace recently. I couldn't get $50 for it and in the end let my puppy have her way with the cushions.

Ben Simmons trade market value is only equal to what someone else is willing to pay. If we believe the clearly manipulated noise, that isn't Hali and multiple firsts. It isn't John Collins, multiple firsts, and the subtraction of Harris' contract. It hasn't been Beal. It hasn't been Lillard. It wasn't Harden when he demanded out of Houston and Philly offered a pre tantrum Simmons alongside Thybulle and two firsts.
 
#84
I mean, I don't think what Morey did really tanked Simmon's trade value much.

Simmons is still what he is, healthy, the same player, just not playing.

I think he's just been playing hard ball to keep on getting the best offers he can get and then at the trade deadline he will pick the best one.

I think no way he doesn't trade him this deadline, if he doesn't and the Sixers lose in the playoffs I think it would be a PR nightmare for him regardless if the outcome would've been worse otherwise.
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#85
You’re combining two unrelated things to try to prove your point. Sure, a trade will be made when both parties (Ben and the Sixers) have both actually incurred some real pain. As for the flawed point, that’s an opinion of yours that you’re entitled to.
I disagree, but I'm not going to belabor the point. It all comes down to what Morey is demanding in trade, and he's way off the mark. Until that demand drops, it will remain status quo no matter how much "max pain" you keep saying there is. :rolleyes:

If his demands become reasonable, a trade will materialize. As long as he keeps asking for insane compensation it just isn't going to happen. No need to overcomplicate things.
 
#86
Fox is degrading as a player. Why is he still shooting 3pt shots when he can't even make 1 out of 4? What's the point? Fox needs to go. He's not a leader. Neither is Hali but at least Hali can shoot the ball. Fox can't hit the side of a barn.
 
#87
There is, of course, a distinction between "value" and "price" that we ought to be careful about. The value of your couch has likely not changed significantly, and the price of the couch has not changed at all. The problem is that the value of the couch and the price of the couch are too misaligned for anyone to purchase it.
And that's what then gives you "overvalued" or "undervalued" assets.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#90
Hali is a stud for sure.

He and Fox were starting to string good games together before the Fox "injury", not that it mattered with how this team plays defense...

... But still, with the way they're keeping Fox out through the deadline, this may be another Kangzian "what if", assuming they do trade him.

Hali better stay a King though!