Shooting is available every off-season, often on the cheap. Doug McBuckets got paid this year, but he was a screaming value coming off his 3/21 deal. And I think we see the trend continue with virtually every young player, no matter the position, prioritizing having a jumper. There's a few unique archetypes/talents that can get away with it, but 95% of the league has to be able to shoot if they want to stick.
Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28
- Thread starter kb02
- Start date
I imagine it increases the chances of a favorable trade- but at the very least it’s *guaranteed* to reset trade talks once there’s a new guy in the FO, regardless of outcome
these are prob the types of events bound to happen that Morey is willing to wait out. One other possibility is what happens in Portland is at or below .500 / around 10 seed and struggling. Does that open up the chances of Dame wanting out and the Blazers willing to give him up for Simmons?
my guess is Morey is willing to wait until the ASB to move Simmons. I doubt he goes into the playoffs with no replacement for Simmons. If Buddy is shooting the lights out maybe he can be at the center of a trade to help with a playoff push, but not before then as long as the Sixers org is okay with letting this simmer
these are prob the types of events bound to happen that Morey is willing to wait out. One other possibility is what happens in Portland is at or below .500 / around 10 seed and struggling. Does that open up the chances of Dame wanting out and the Blazers willing to give him up for Simmons?
my guess is Morey is willing to wait until the ASB to move Simmons. I doubt he goes into the playoffs with no replacement for Simmons. If Buddy is shooting the lights out maybe he can be at the center of a trade to help with a playoff push, but not before then as long as the Sixers org is okay with letting this simmer
You’re citing subjective accolades and labeling them as objective. They are not.
Fox has played at a level that he too could have been subjectively voted as an all-star. The fact that he hasn’t and Simmons has doesn’t mean a thing.
While Simmons defense and play making are valid points, Swipa is “elite” at the rim and is a vastly superior scorer — especially clutch time Q4 scoring when it matters most. Wasn’t he top 3 in Q4 scoring last season??
It can be easily argued that those skills matter just as much if not more which is why your “objectively a better player” statement is still false.
Furthermore, Swipa is 17 months younger than Simmons, so the age factor shouldn’t even be mentioned unless it’s to acknowledge that De’Aaron has an edge there too.
Lastly, if you truly believed Simmons was a better player in the here and now you’d be silly not to make that trade straight up. Yet you said you wouldn’t.
Because in totality he’s not a better player. He just has the potential to be if he is able to fix the major flaws in his game, which may be more mental than anything else.
Fox has played at a level that he too could have been subjectively voted as an all-star. The fact that he hasn’t and Simmons has doesn’t mean a thing.
While Simmons defense and play making are valid points, Swipa is “elite” at the rim and is a vastly superior scorer — especially clutch time Q4 scoring when it matters most. Wasn’t he top 3 in Q4 scoring last season??
It can be easily argued that those skills matter just as much if not more which is why your “objectively a better player” statement is still false.
Furthermore, Swipa is 17 months younger than Simmons, so the age factor shouldn’t even be mentioned unless it’s to acknowledge that De’Aaron has an edge there too.
Lastly, if you truly believed Simmons was a better player in the here and now you’d be silly not to make that trade straight up. Yet you said you wouldn’t.
Because in totality he’s not a better player. He just has the potential to be if he is able to fix the major flaws in his game, which may be more mental than anything else.
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Without getting too much into the whole accolades are subjective debate, I just want to point out the flaw in the bolded, because future matters. Harrison Barnes was objectively a better player than Tyrese Haliburton in his rookie season, in the here and now. But future matters, and the OP even said that he thinks Fox has a better future than Simmons.
He has a pile of statistics and math to back up his point. You have... your eyeballs? One has provable value. The other is an opinion.
It's not a slight on Fox to say Simmons is better than him. Simmons is a clear top 15 player and has a real case of being the best defensive player in basketball. Kings fans need to stop acting like it's some sort of slight to say so.
It's ALL opinion. Opinions can be more or less defensible, but judging whether Player A or B is better is necessarily a matter of opinion not resolved by counting All-Star appearances.
Many of us understand that All-Star appearances, like playoff appearances and championships, are partly a function of team success. In the alternate universe where Fox has played alongside a force like Joel Embiid, and made the playoffs multiple years, he has some accolades too.
Can't/won't shoot outside 3 feet in the playoffs? Liability from the free-throw line? Haven't improved on glaring weaknesses after four seasons? And your name isn't Shaquille O'Neal or Ben Wallace? Yeah, I don't see you as a top-15 guy.
Many of us understand that All-Star appearances, like playoff appearances and championships, are partly a function of team success. In the alternate universe where Fox has played alongside a force like Joel Embiid, and made the playoffs multiple years, he has some accolades too.
Can't/won't shoot outside 3 feet in the playoffs? Liability from the free-throw line? Haven't improved on glaring weaknesses after four seasons? And your name isn't Shaquille O'Neal or Ben Wallace? Yeah, I don't see you as a top-15 guy.
If you mathed it out, yeah, Gobert is probably pretty close to a top 15 player. He's not much lower than 23-25 range, that's for sure. Simmons is more valuable than Gobert because of the positional limitations of a big man and Simmons playmaking/ball-handling abilities. Along with great efficiency on low shot attempts.
The D just isn't great, his legit high level defensive versatility to defend anyone and any position. He's right there in the conversation with Giannis/Jrue/Gobert as the best defender in the NBA.
He's the best wing rebounder in the NBA. He's a top 10 passer/playmaker. He'd be unreal in an uptempo/transition/high pace team, but the Sixers won't play that way with Embiid. And for the all the whining about his scoring, he's been 14-16 PPG on a minimum 58%+ TS the last 3 years. That's really good.
So, to summarize:
-Top 3-5 defender, regardless of position
-Best wing rebounder
-Top 10 creator/inherent value of being a 6'10 ball-handler/playmaker.
-Nightmare in transition if he was on a team that would push pace.
-2nd best player on a top 5-7 team in the NBA the last 4 seasons. Constant 50+ win pace.
The shot and FT shooting really does hold him back from being in top 5 consideration, but he's basically at or near the top of the list in basically every other aspect of basketball. That's why he's a top 15 player.
The D just isn't great, his legit high level defensive versatility to defend anyone and any position. He's right there in the conversation with Giannis/Jrue/Gobert as the best defender in the NBA.
He's the best wing rebounder in the NBA. He's a top 10 passer/playmaker. He'd be unreal in an uptempo/transition/high pace team, but the Sixers won't play that way with Embiid. And for the all the whining about his scoring, he's been 14-16 PPG on a minimum 58%+ TS the last 3 years. That's really good.
So, to summarize:
-Top 3-5 defender, regardless of position
-Best wing rebounder
-Top 10 creator/inherent value of being a 6'10 ball-handler/playmaker.
-Nightmare in transition if he was on a team that would push pace.
-2nd best player on a top 5-7 team in the NBA the last 4 seasons. Constant 50+ win pace.
The shot and FT shooting really does hold him back from being in top 5 consideration, but he's basically at or near the top of the list in basically every other aspect of basketball. That's why he's a top 15 player.
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At what point is it safe to wonder if the Nuggets really know what they're doing anymore?
They just re-upped Gordon and I'm assuming they'd try to keep Murray from any potential trade but they've already traded draft capital in getting Gordon in the first place, are tight up against the cap, and playing Simmons and Jokic together presents a lot of the same issues that playing him and Embiid together did.
Who do you suspect will be the better player in 3 years?
It's hard for me not to be biased, but I can't help but think Fox has a good shot at taking the crown in the next couple years. If he shoots even a couple percentage points better from 3 and the line you are looking at a monster scorer. He has the tools to be one of the best defensive guards too he just hasn't shown it. Maybe Off Night rubs off on him and he elevates his game on that end.
It's hard for me not to be biased, but I can't help but think Fox has a good shot at taking the crown in the next couple years. If he shoots even a couple percentage points better from 3 and the line you are looking at a monster scorer. He has the tools to be one of the best defensive guards too he just hasn't shown it. Maybe Off Night rubs off on him and he elevates his game on that end.
Who is better right now is important but maybe not as important as who is better in 2-3 years. I believe my question is relevant to a potential trade of Simmons for Fox. Jamal has been pretty vocal about Simmons being the superior player today (which I agree with, although it won't shock me if Fox leapfrogs him this season) so I am genuinely curious what his projection is for a couple years down the road.
Even if that's the case, that's not the point being made and debated.
But just to answer you directly, I'd personally choose Simmons, because I don't think either of them are #1 guys on a championship team, and I think it's a lot easier to replace what Fox brings (basically a high usage scoring guard) than what Simmons brings (both at their best). In other words, I'd still need a KD to win big, and I'd rather have KD+Simmons than KD+Fox.
If the question is who would I pick to be the best player on my team with no hope of other roster moves or getting other stars, then my answer would be Fox, purely because offense is more valuable than defense in isolation.
But just to answer you directly, I'd personally choose Simmons, because I don't think either of them are #1 guys on a championship team, and I think it's a lot easier to replace what Fox brings (basically a high usage scoring guard) than what Simmons brings (both at their best). In other words, I'd still need a KD to win big, and I'd rather have KD+Simmons than KD+Fox.
If the question is who would I pick to be the best player on my team with no hope of other roster moves or getting other stars, then my answer would be Fox, purely because offense is more valuable than defense in isolation.
So going by your rankings of Simmons and Embiid, and I agree with the Embiid ranking, and knowing that the 76ers also have a top 5 defensive wing in Thybulle, a knock down 3 point shooter in Curry, a capable small ball 4 in Harris along with solid pieces off the bench in Maxey and occasionally Milton, they had a solid reserve big in Dwight. How do they not get to the championship? How do they not get past a defensively challenged Atlanta?
My thinking is that Simmons is difficult to build around, but not impossible. And I’m not knocking him. But he’s a Draymond Green in that you surround them with these really good pieces and then they can flourish. I personally think Simmons makes the 76ers somewhat offensively challenged as they are built right now because of his lack of outside game. Yes, defensively, the 76ers can be and are stout. But we saw what an offensive team like the Hawks were able to do.
Now I don’t agree that Simmons is a top 15 player but I also don’t think he’s terrible despite the shooting and free throw shooting but those 2 aspects are a big thing. I’ll stick with Fox as I think those type of guys who can score like that and see the floor a bit are really hard to find. I think if Sac surrounds with defensive pieces, we could see the playoffs. I think if Fox was on the 76ers instead of Simmons, then there is still enough defensive juice on the 76ers that they would become more capable offensively and go farther.
I also think that if the 76ers obtained Hield and Bagley and firsts AND Maxey can adequately replace Simmons in the lineup, like they may be better in the long run……doesn’t mean Hield and Bagley are better but I could feasibly see how Embiid would benefit from the addition of Hield’s shooting. Maybe this last part is a stretch.
My thinking is that Simmons is difficult to build around, but not impossible. And I’m not knocking him. But he’s a Draymond Green in that you surround them with these really good pieces and then they can flourish. I personally think Simmons makes the 76ers somewhat offensively challenged as they are built right now because of his lack of outside game. Yes, defensively, the 76ers can be and are stout. But we saw what an offensive team like the Hawks were able to do.
Now I don’t agree that Simmons is a top 15 player but I also don’t think he’s terrible despite the shooting and free throw shooting but those 2 aspects are a big thing. I’ll stick with Fox as I think those type of guys who can score like that and see the floor a bit are really hard to find. I think if Sac surrounds with defensive pieces, we could see the playoffs. I think if Fox was on the 76ers instead of Simmons, then there is still enough defensive juice on the 76ers that they would become more capable offensively and go farther.
I also think that if the 76ers obtained Hield and Bagley and firsts AND Maxey can adequately replace Simmons in the lineup, like they may be better in the long run……doesn’t mean Hield and Bagley are better but I could feasibly see how Embiid would benefit from the addition of Hield’s shooting. Maybe this last part is a stretch.
I think we can agree, they've been a top 7ish team the last 4 years. They were Kawhi missing the baseline jumper away from getting to the conference finals 2 years ago. Simmons was out last years playoffs when they lost to the Celtics. And he just had a really bad series vs ATL, it happens. People are leaning way too hard into that series as if it's still an indictment of his talent. BTW, he still went 11.9 PPG, 8.8 APG, 7.9 RPG on 62% FG for the playoffs this year.... that's bad?
Also, Simmons and Embiid just aren't an amazing fit and they've been muscling up 50 win seasons because of how talented they are. Both guys would benefit greatly playing with a perimeter-oriented ball-handler/guard that can space.
If Fox never becomes a league average 3pt shooter (and better free throw shooter) - he will be really difficult to build a high-level team around. I believe that he will - but this is just a projection (and I have no ability to predict the future).
But if you swap out Last years Fox for Ben Simmons - I think the team is immediately better (unless Simmons has problems with his mentals).
Tyrese, Buddy, Simmons, Barnes and Holmes with Mitchell, Davis, Harkless, Bagley and Len off the bench is pretty dang solid. Sure - you’d prefer a stretch 5 like Myles Turner - but you can’t have everything.
That said. I love Fox. I think he, Tyrese, Mitchell, and Holmes are the right dudes to turn this ship around.
But if you swap out Last years Fox for Ben Simmons - I think the team is immediately better (unless Simmons has problems with his mentals).
Tyrese, Buddy, Simmons, Barnes and Holmes with Mitchell, Davis, Harkless, Bagley and Len off the bench is pretty dang solid. Sure - you’d prefer a stretch 5 like Myles Turner - but you can’t have everything.
That said. I love Fox. I think he, Tyrese, Mitchell, and Holmes are the right dudes to turn this ship around.