Holmes re-signs

Grade the move


  • Total voters
    64
#62
We said that last year too...

We are basically so far rolling out the exact same team from last year, just switched Whiteside for Len.
And that might be okay. I think we sometimes forget there is a lot of good in keeping a team together, especially when the best players are younger players. Another year of Fox, Hali, and hopefully Bagley getting better and having the familiarity of playing with the same guys could be a boost to the win total. Mitchell could end up being a big boost too.

We didn't miss the playoffs by much so potentially just the natural improvement from our core could be enough to get us there.
 
#64
We said that last year too...

We are basically so far rolling out the exact same team from last year, just switched Whiteside for Len.
Yep without a Buddy/Bagley trade for a wing that actually helps us win games, I'd call this offseason a massive failure for McNair. He better hope Davion turns into Donovan in a hurry.
 
#65
Yep without a Buddy/Bagley trade for a wing that actually helps us win games, I'd call this offseason a massive failure for McNair. He better hope Davion turns into Donovan in a hurry.
We'll see. I didn't think the Buddy for Kuzma & Harrell would make the Kings better. At best Harrell was insurance in case Holmes didn't re-sign and Kuzma would need to make a significant improvement to move the needle at all. He's also a stretch 4 and not the kind of wing this team actually needs.

And the only deal we heard of for Bagley was to move down in the draft and get Jonas Valanciunas. I don't think that would have improved the team either. There may not be a lot of opportunities to improve the team by trading those two.

On the other hand, nearly all of the best Kings lineups from last season (in terms of net rating) included Buddy and/or Bagley. Two that played significant minutes together and had net ratings of +7.6 and + 7.2 respectively were:

Fox, Hield, Haliburton,Barnes & Holmes
and
Fox, Hield, Barnes, Bagley, Holmes

If there's nothing out there of value for Buddy and MBIII then there's no need to trade them just to trade them. I've all along thought that if no decent deal for Bagley emerged and if Holmes left as a FA, the Kings were best off throwing Marvin out as the starting center and letting him sink or swim. But with Richaun re-signing, I think it's likely the Kings rollout a starting lineup of:

Holmes
Bagley
Barnes
Haliburton (or possibly Hield)
Fox

With Hield as the starting SG, that starting five led the Kings to a .500 record when they all played together. If Haliburton makes a small leap, Hield returns to a sixth man role and Mitchell and Len improve the second unit defense the continuity alone should lead to improvement as long as the team stays healthy.

I was incredibly disappointed on draft night that Hield and Bagley (and possibly Barnes) weren't dealt but no deal is better than a bad deal. This team isn't going to make a huge leap as constituted, but they should be better than last season which I'll take over a step backwards just to jettison Buddy and Marvin.
 
Last edited:
#66
Yep without a Buddy/Bagley trade for a wing that actually helps us win games, I'd call this offseason a massive failure for McNair. He better hope Davion turns into Donovan in a hurry.
Eh totally disagree. I think we still end up moving Buddy and/or Bagley, but even if we finish off with an MLE signing (and us not doing the TT trade), McNair has VASTLY improved the bench over the course of the year from where we were opening day last year:

Hali
Cojo
Bjelica
Whiteside

Was your bench that got minutes opening day. That's now become:

Mitchell
Wright/Davis
Harkless
Bagley(or Buddy)
Len

With Metu/Woodard/Ramsey/Neemias in your developmental slots. I don't know how that isn't a big improvement.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#67
Free agency has just started and obviously McNair had some small deals already lined up, not including Holmes, who was a much bigger deal. He has the rest of free agency to make more deals. I still think that Buddy and Bagley will be gone before the season starts. I know some idiots on this forum think he can make any deal he wants, but that's not how this works. And I agree with you, no deal is better than a bad deal, and sometime patience is required to get the deal you want.

Personally, I'm the vengeful type. I'd trade Buddy to the Clippers out of spite. As you can see, I wouldn't be a good GM. So far every move McNair has made has been to help the defense. And when your last in the league in defense, that's not a bad idea. So I'll wait till I see the final outcome before passing judgement, and truly, we won't really know until we see them play. Sometimes a lot of little things can add up to a bigger result. We'll see!
 
#68
Eh totally disagree. I think we still end up moving Buddy and/or Bagley, but even if we finish off with an MLE signing (and us not doing the TT trade), McNair has VASTLY improved the bench over the course of the year from where we were opening day last year:

Hali
Cojo
Bjelica
Whiteside

Was your bench that got minutes opening day. That's now become:

Mitchell
Wright/Davis
Harkless
Bagley(or Buddy)
Len

With Metu/Woodard/Ramsey/Neemias in your developmental slots. I don't know how that isn't a big improvement.
It's basically just swapping non impact players out for other non impact players. We already had Wright, Davis and Harkless last year and we had Len the year before. The team wasn't much better or worse whether any of those guys were there or not. We've added a couple rookies and are basically just running it back again.

The only saving grace is a Buddy/Bagley trade. Otherwise they might as well just tank again. We were never a Len or Harkless away from a run at it.
 
#69
It's basically just swapping non impact players out for other non impact players. We already had Wright, Davis and Harkless last year and we had Len the year before. The team wasn't much better or worse whether any of those guys were there or not. We've added a couple rookies and are basically just running it back again.

The only saving grace is a Buddy/Bagley trade. Otherwise they might as well just tank again. We were never a Len or Harkless away from a run at it.
Unfortunately I think we're learning that Buddy and Bagley have little to no value in the trade market. Buddy due to his contract and regression on the court last year, and Bagley due to his inability to stay healthy, lack of improvement, and looming (restricted) free agency. I expect them to get dealt if there's a decent return to be had, but I think most Kings fans are going to be underwhelmed at what they return.

If the Tristan Thompson deal goes through maybe Buddy and TT for Tobias Harris might be reasonable, only because Harris also has an albatross contract and the Sixers need shooting.

I don't see Marvin by himself returning anything of value at this point. And if so, the Kings might be better off keeping him and seeing if he can stay healthy, improve his play, and net something in trade at the deadline.

Otherwise you let him finish out his contract and walk as a FA. An awful outcome for the #2 pick in a loaded draft, but that's where we may find ourselves.
 
#70
Unfortunately I think we're learning that Buddy and Bagley have little to no value in the trade market. Buddy due to his contract and regression on the court last year, and Bagley due to his inability to stay healthy, lack of improvement, and looming (restricted) free agency. I expect them to get dealt if there's a decent return to be had, but I think most Kings fans are going to be underwhelmed at what they return.

If the Tristan Thompson deal goes through maybe Buddy and TT for Tobias Harris might be reasonable, only because Harris also has an albatross contract and the Sixers need shooting.

I don't see Marvin by himself returning anything of value at this point. And if so, the Kings might be better off keeping him and seeing if he can stay healthy, improve his play, and net something in trade at the deadline.

Otherwise you let him finish out his contract and walk as a FA. An awful outcome for the #2 pick in a loaded draft, but that's where we may find ourselves.
Yeah I'm not counting on it at all but it's really about the only hand that's left to play. Otherwise the teams performance is basically solely going to rely on Mitchell and Haliburton's improvement. The rest of these guys are either already established like Fox, Barnes and Holmes or they're bottom of the barrel role players that don't really impact winning at all.

I think it's obvious that the defense has been improved but I don't think the team's success has been improved at all.
 
#71
Unfortunately I think we're learning that Buddy and Bagley have little to no value in the trade market. Buddy due to his contract and regression on the court last year, and Bagley due to his inability to stay healthy, lack of improvement, and looming (restricted) free agency. I expect them to get dealt if there's a decent return to be had, but I think most Kings fans are going to be underwhelmed at what they return.

If the Tristan Thompson deal goes through maybe Buddy and TT for Tobias Harris might be reasonable, only because Harris also has an albatross contract and the Sixers need shooting.

I don't see Marvin by himself returning anything of value at this point. And if so, the Kings might be better off keeping him and seeing if he can stay healthy, improve his play, and net something in trade at the deadline.

Otherwise you let him finish out his contract and walk as a FA. An awful outcome for the #2 pick in a loaded draft, but that's where we may find ourselves.
Now that the scramble of free agency's opening is out of the way, there may be greater possible trade destinations for Buddy. For the most part, cap sheets around the league are maxed out, but there are plenty of teams that didn't fill all of their needs via the draft and early free agent signings. Anybody looking for shooting is absolutely going to have Hield at the top of their wish list, given his obvious availability. His contract is not particularly team-friendly, but after the rash of horrible deals that were just handed out to players less skilled from deep than Buddy, I don't imagine that his contract will be too much of a deterrent, given the elite nature of his primary skill set.

Of course, this does not necessarily mean that there are a host of trade possibilities available to the Kings. But the right deal for Hield just might be out there if McNair is aggressive enough. Daryl Morey is presently content to sit on his hands regarding Ben Simmons, but it's been suggested that Philly is open to trading Tobias Harris. I'm a proponent of a Buddy+Bagley swap for Harris. I think it's a deal that could work out well for both teams. Yes, Harris' contract is even uglier than Hield's, but it runs its course by the time the Kings would have to pay Haliburton.

McNair should be looking at possible trades like that, risky bets though they may be. He's going to have to start rolling the dice a little bit if the goal is for this team to be competing for a playoff spot next season. Just making moves on the margins is not going to get it done, unless Fox takes another leap next season, Hali takes a big leap next season, and Mitchell competes well beyond expectations in his rookie year. That's a lot to ask of those three young guards and the coaching staff (who remain largely unconvincing to most Kings fans, I'd wager).
 
#77
Unfortunately I think we're learning that Buddy and Bagley have little to no value in the trade market. Buddy due to his contract and regression on the court last year, and Bagley due to his inability to stay healthy, lack of improvement, and looming (restricted) free agency. I expect them to get dealt if there's a decent return to be had, but I think most Kings fans are going to be underwhelmed at what they return.

If the Tristan Thompson deal goes through maybe Buddy and TT for Tobias Harris might be reasonable, only because Harris also has an albatross contract and the Sixers need shooting.

I don't see Marvin by himself returning anything of value at this point. And if so, the Kings might be better off keeping him and seeing if he can stay healthy, improve his play, and net something in trade at the deadline.

Otherwise you let him finish out his contract and walk as a FA. An awful outcome for the #2 pick in a loaded draft, but that's where we may find ourselves.
Sad thing is he has the capability to he very good at least offensively, but he is not a healthy guy. I get the impression on defense he is less than lazy and with respect to taking care of his body, same thing. He is too buzy trying to make musoc and pretend other people are holding him back when the man has missed 52% of his own career.
 
#78
Sad thing is he has the capability to he very good at least offensively, but he is not a healthy guy. I get the impression on defense he is less than lazy and with respect to taking care of his body, same thing. He is too buzy trying to make musoc and pretend other people are holding him back when the man has missed 52% of his own career.
There are plenty of things to criticize about Bagley without calling him lazy. Every coach and player who has talked about Bagley has said that he is a very hard worker.
 
#79
There are plenty of things to criticize about Bagley without calling him lazy. Every coach and player who has talked about Bagley has said that he is a very hard worker.
i mean what are the coaches supposed to say that’s he’s lazy? I don’t doubt Bagley puts in work but I’m pretty~~~ sure he doesn’t work even close to Mitchell’s level who put in two workouts before a team practice. I’m not expecting Bagley to put in obsessive Kobe like work ethic but he had such a long offseason during pandemic season and he gained like 5 measly lbs of muscle. With NBA training and diet he should have easily gained 15-20 or have been a lot better in some other aspect imo
 
#80
i mean what are the coaches supposed to say that’s he’s lazy? I don’t doubt Bagley puts in work but I’m pretty~~~ sure he doesn’t work even close to Mitchell’s level who put in two workouts before a team practice. I’m not expecting Bagley to put in obsessive Kobe like work ethic but he had such a long offseason during pandemic season and he gained like 5 measly lbs of muscle. With NBA training and diet he should have easily gained 15-20 or have been a lot better in some other aspect imo
No offense, but if you compare NBA player's work ethics with Kobe or Mitchell, you would have to call over 90% of the league lazy.
 
#82
I was incredibly disappointed on draft night that Hield and Bagley (and possibly Barnes) weren't dealt but no deal is better than a bad deal. This team isn't going to make a huge leap as constituted, but they should be better than last season which I'll take over a step backwards just to jettison Buddy and Marvin.
AMEN to that.
 
#83
Sad thing is he has the capability to he very good at least offensively, but he is not a healthy guy. I get the impression on defense he is less than lazy and with respect to taking care of his body, same thing. He is too buzy trying to make musoc and pretend other people are holding him back when the man has missed 52% of his own career.
All reports suggest that Marvin Bagley is a very hard worker who is committed to his own improvement. But his health has been a serious problem (though likely not a chronic one, given the nature of his injuries). His health has also been the greatest impediment to his success thus far in his career. For a young and developing player, consistent court time is everything, and Marvin simply has not been able to string together enough lengthy stints for there to be any kind of significant payoff to selecting him with the 2nd overall draft pick in 2018. So his off-court pursuits become a site of resentment and frustration for Kings fans. They become "evidence" of an apparent lack of commitment, even if they have nothing to do with Marvin's slow development.

Don't get me wrong; Kings fans should be disappointed in what they've seen from Marvin Bagley thus far in his career. The injuries have been discouraging, and the very modest strides we have seen are not encouraging enough. Kings fans are also justified in some of their resentments due to the fact that the team passed on Luka Doncic to take Bagley. But the overblown animosity towards Marvin Bagley around these parts is as much of a reach as the selection of Bagley himself turned out to be.

Will he ever be even half as talented as Luka? No. The Kings got that one wrong, as did a lot of other talent evaluators and NBA fans (myself included). Will he ever be an all-star? It's pretty unlikely. The way basketball is played in the modern NBA leaves little room for players like Marvin to thrive at an all-star level. Should the Kings move on from him altogether? Probably. It doesn't seem like he fits with the kind of roster that Monte McNair wants to build. None of that means we should assassinate his character or slander his work ethic. So far, there are a handful of reliable voices that attest to Marvin's commitment to his own development as a player, and very little concrete evidence to suggest otherwise.
 
#84
Will he ever be even half as talented as Luka? No. The Kings got that one wrong, as did a lot of other talent evaluators and NBA fans (myself included). Will he ever be an all-star? It's pretty unlikely. The way basketball is played in the modern NBA leaves little room for players like Marvin to thrive at an all-star level. Should the Kings move on from him altogether? Probably. It doesn't seem like he fits with the kind of roster that Monte McNair wants to build. None of that means we should assassinate his character or slander his work ethic. So far, there are a handful of reliable voices that attest to Marvin's commitment to his own development as a player, and very little concrete evidence to suggest otherwise.
I'd like to see him rehabbed enough to get a late lotto pick but that really seems unlikely. I wanted Luka but got over it during the season because it looked like we at least were going to go places with the kid, my big frustration is his court time has been so limited we never even got a fair chance to see what we have or don't have. But it does feel like the myth of the 2018 draft - that "Big men are back baby!" was just that - a myth. Ayton is the only one who has remotely panned out thus far. The rest can't stay healthy and tbh I am not even sure what to make of Bamba at this point. I'm more excited about our 2nd round pick this year as being in that traditional big with a 3 mold than I am about most bigs picked recently since Ayton. Is he going to work? I dunno but at least we only spent a second on him.
 
#85
I'd like to see him rehabbed enough to get a late lotto pick but that really seems unlikely. I wanted Luka but got over it during the season because it looked like we at least were going to go places with the kid, my big frustration is his court time has been so limited we never even got a fair chance to see what we have or don't have. But it does feel like the myth of the 2018 draft - that "Big men are back baby!" was just that - a myth. Ayton is the only one who has remotely panned out thus far. The rest can't stay healthy and tbh I am not even sure what to make of Bamba at this point. I'm more excited about our 2nd round pick this year as being in that traditional big with a 3 mold than I am about most bigs picked recently since Ayton. Is he going to work? I dunno but at least we only spent a second on him.
Yeah, it's really just a shame that, after three years, the franchise still doesn't have a good sense of Marvin's long-term fit or value due to the unfortunate early career injuries and lack of court time. The Kings are in the unenviable position of either needing to find a deal for him before the trade deadline next season, paying him next offseason without a strong sense of how he's going to fit or pan out, or watching him walk for nothing as the ultimate humiliation for their failure in the 2018 draft. It's simply not a good place to be. :confused:

Bagley obviously doesn't represent much value on his own right now, but my hope remains that he can be packaged with either Buddy Hield or Harrison Barnes (preferably the former) in a trade. Marvin would function to aid in the potential matching of salaries and as a flyer for the receiving team to justify by way of "He played for the KANGZ. We can do better."
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#87
Eh totally disagree. I think we still end up moving Buddy and/or Bagley, but even if we finish off with an MLE signing (and us not doing the TT trade), McNair has VASTLY improved the bench over the course of the year from where we were opening day last year:

Hali
Cojo
Bjelica
Whiteside

Was your bench that got minutes opening day. That's now become:

Mitchell
Wright/Davis
Harkless
Bagley(or Buddy)
Len

With Metu/Woodard/Ramsey/Neemias in your developmental slots. I don't know how that isn't a big improvement.
If they want to preserve value for everyone involved they probably both have to be moved. Davion is known for his defense but as a 9th pick in a pretty decent draft up to about pick 16 you still need some level of productivity out of him. Otherwise he'll top out at about a Marcus Smart level value wise. If they steal some shots from Buddy to spread it over the other guys then he's losing value. Same with Bagley. They need to get ahead of this before it just goes lower.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#88
Unfortunately I think we're learning that Buddy and Bagley have little to no value in the trade market. Buddy due to his contract and regression on the court last year, and Bagley due to his inability to stay healthy, lack of improvement, and looming (restricted) free agency. I expect them to get dealt if there's a decent return to be had, but I think most Kings fans are going to be underwhelmed at what they return.

If the Tristan Thompson deal goes through maybe Buddy and TT for Tobias Harris might be reasonable, only because Harris also has an albatross contract and the Sixers need shooting.

I don't see Marvin by himself returning anything of value at this point. And if so, the Kings might be better off keeping him and seeing if he can stay healthy, improve his play, and net something in trade at the deadline.

Otherwise you let him finish out his contract and walk as a FA. An awful outcome for the #2 pick in a loaded draft, but that's where we may find ourselves.
I'm not sure about Bagley but Buddy has to have some value. I mean, if Monte is waiting for some glorious deal that brings a superstar he's wasting his time. If the Lakers trade had any legs that's about what you'd expect for a Buddy Hield right now. The fact is the longer they wait the worse things will probably get. Mitchell is going to need some piece of the offense so there's another mouth to feed. As for Bagley there are already signs the dude is on the verge of requesting a trade. Whatever they see early in the season they better be quick to act on. Letting a number 2 pick walk is quite the step up from waiving someone like Papa G. It will be interesting to see where it heads for sure.
 
#89
If they want to preserve value for everyone involved they probably both have to be moved. Davion is known for his defense but as a 9th pick in a pretty decent draft up to about pick 16 you still need some level of productivity out of him. Otherwise he'll top out at about a Marcus Smart level value wise. If they steal some shots from Buddy to spread it over the other guys then he's losing value. Same with Bagley. They need to get ahead of this before it just goes lower.
Right now, I think

Fox || Mitchell
Hali
??? || Harkless
Barnes
Holmes || Len

Is pretty well set in stone in the rotation next year. That leaves the Davis decision (looks like we might retain at a real cost savings since we haven't heard a peep), potentially Wright (if we back out of the ATL deal) Buddy, Bagley and whatever you do with the MLE as your remaining trade chips to improve the team.

Honestly, not too bad of a spot to be in. I think the top 7 are all pretty solid and a definite upgrade on our defense. McNair is like 65% of the way to a pretty darn good off-season. Just needs to finish out strong.
 

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#90
Right now, I think

Fox || Mitchell
Hali
??? || Harkless
Barnes
Holmes || Len

Is pretty well set in stone in the rotation next year. That leaves the Davis decision (looks like we might retain at a real cost savings since we haven't heard a peep), potentially Wright (if we back out of the ATL deal) Buddy, Bagley and whatever you do with the MLE as your remaining trade chips to improve the team.

Honestly, not too bad of a spot to be in. I think the top 7 are all pretty solid and a definite upgrade on our defense McNair is like 65% of the way to a pretty darn good off-season. Just needs to finish out strong.
I'm not sure where Walton stands if all these pieces are here. Is he going to run out the same classic sized lineup with Bagley/Holmes in the frontcourt? I can't see them benching Bagley if he's still here. If Buddy and Bagley are here at the start I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Fox/Buddy/Barnes/Bagley/Holmes as that starting unit again with Mitchell/Haliburton as your bench co 6th men.