The Kings need to work on a rebuild plan. Its little things but its also talent related. If Bam is available, hes played with Fox. He can pass, rebound, defend and score. Hes young and will probably continue improving. If true the Kings should be all over this....https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.es...r-as-it-eyes-a-potential-super-team-for-2021/
The State of the Kings
- Thread starter Bosnian Diehard
- Start date
This over-the-top hyperbole love for Ja Morant and Trae Young is baffling.
It’s because they AREN’T Sacramento KINGS. Has to be. If either were KINGS, many of you would be lusting after other players instead. Probably even Fox. Always wanting what someone else has. And under appreciating what you’ve got.
Trae Young’s team isn’t even in this NBA bubble. Cause his team sucks worse than Fox’s KINGS. Doesn’t matter that his team loses, he gets a pass whereas Fox does not from you people.
Regarding Ja Morant, keep in mind I’m the guy that predicted pre-draft that Morant would end up the best player from this draft. I’ve always liked him.
That said, his performance this season is similar to Fox’s 2nd season. And nobody seems to recognize or acknowledge that Morant played an extra year in college than Swipa did. So he came into the league a bit more ready and prepared. And also didn’t have to sit and wait behind George Hill because his coach prefers not to play rookies.
Totally different set of circumstances for Ja entering the league versus Fox that had no direct correlation on either’s overall abilities.
If you watched the two players matchup this season, it was clear Fox was the superior player. He clearly took the matchup personally and got the better of it.
Claiming that Fox isn’t a franchise player while claiming Morant already is ... is, well, wrong.
The final verdict isn’t in on Swipa just yet. But he’s looking better than ever these past few games. Nobody can seem to stay in front of him so defenses are having to pack the lane. When utilized properly, he’s causing defenses headaches. Unfortunately he’s not getting a lot of help.
Meanwhile Morant’s team also hasn’t won a game in this 8 game season and just might come from ahead to lose a playoff spot. While he’s surely looked like the player I thought he’d be, he hasn’t proven yet to be any better than Swipa. There are things he does better than Fox, and things Fox does better than him.
They are both amazing looking talents that might look better or worse than they are dependIng upon the team they play for, the system the coach runs, and how they are utilized.
It’s because they AREN’T Sacramento KINGS. Has to be. If either were KINGS, many of you would be lusting after other players instead. Probably even Fox. Always wanting what someone else has. And under appreciating what you’ve got.
Trae Young’s team isn’t even in this NBA bubble. Cause his team sucks worse than Fox’s KINGS. Doesn’t matter that his team loses, he gets a pass whereas Fox does not from you people.
Regarding Ja Morant, keep in mind I’m the guy that predicted pre-draft that Morant would end up the best player from this draft. I’ve always liked him.
That said, his performance this season is similar to Fox’s 2nd season. And nobody seems to recognize or acknowledge that Morant played an extra year in college than Swipa did. So he came into the league a bit more ready and prepared. And also didn’t have to sit and wait behind George Hill because his coach prefers not to play rookies.
Totally different set of circumstances for Ja entering the league versus Fox that had no direct correlation on either’s overall abilities.
If you watched the two players matchup this season, it was clear Fox was the superior player. He clearly took the matchup personally and got the better of it.
Claiming that Fox isn’t a franchise player while claiming Morant already is ... is, well, wrong.
The final verdict isn’t in on Swipa just yet. But he’s looking better than ever these past few games. Nobody can seem to stay in front of him so defenses are having to pack the lane. When utilized properly, he’s causing defenses headaches. Unfortunately he’s not getting a lot of help.
Meanwhile Morant’s team also hasn’t won a game in this 8 game season and just might come from ahead to lose a playoff spot. While he’s surely looked like the player I thought he’d be, he hasn’t proven yet to be any better than Swipa. There are things he does better than Fox, and things Fox does better than him.
They are both amazing looking talents that might look better or worse than they are dependIng upon the team they play for, the system the coach runs, and how they are utilized.
Cuz had the big dog mentality from day 1 but sadly his ability wasn't there right away. By the time he developed into genuine all star he was surrounded by garbage. Also whatever people say his attitude held him back everywhere he went.
Fox has all the ability but doesn't have the big dog attitude in my opinion. You can't teach that.
Fox has all the ability but doesn't have the big dog attitude in my opinion. You can't teach that.
I never said trade Fox. I said trade for Bam to play with Fox. Normally I write this stuff off but thats Windhorst and hes connected. Its not Chad Ford or Ric Bucher making stuff up. And I could totally see Riley going all in on Giannis. Its a very Riley thing to try and he has a hx of pulling it off. Even so if I were Riley id keep Bam but if he did become available you go hard for it.
The problem is coaching. When Fox is running the offense and driving like a runaway train towards the basket hes virtually unstoppable. In the half court he can create not at the same level but he can. Problem is Walton likes to play Hield at PG and put Fox off the ball standing in the corner. I know Walton says he watches the tape but no competent NBA coach would tell Fox to stand in the corner while Hield is dribbling around creating the shot. If I didnt know better I would think this coaching is straight out of an Onion article but we are Kings fans so its real life
Generally, in the past I would say the offense is good and the defense is horrible, but at the current time it's quite the opposite. Other teams move the ball, set-up teammates and make the other team work on defense (the Kings not so much).
Guards-Fox
Listening to the Mavs' commentators during the last game they had a lot to say about Fox. They said the Kings didn't pick you know who because they were happy with the ball in Fox's hands. They went on to say that they didn't think "a team" could win with the ball in Fox's hands and that Fox does not look to distribute (he looks to score first).
Guards-Buddy
Several league insiders have commented that Hield looks out of shape. He has struggled on the court, going 7-for-26 overall and 3-for-15 from 3-point range through two games. That’s not a great sign for the Kings, who have Hield starting a four-year, $94 million extension next season.
– via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN
Guards-Boggy
Bodgan would be a good guard off the bench for another team. His defense is not starting caliber SG or SF. He should not have a 0-13 leash, but when your only other option is an out-of-shape Buddy, why not go with Jeffries?
Small-Ball
Walton's obsession with small-ball is over-the-top. We finally get Len ready to play and he played how many minutes? Bjelly is not a center. Holmes is doing a great job, but with Mr. Glass Bagley never playing we should look for a big that the coach will actually play.
Team Fit
The commentators for the Mavs also said the Kings have talented players, but they don't "mesh." With lineups like we are seeing, I'd have to agree.
Bubble
I hope we don't win a single game in the bubble now, the worse seeding the better.
Guards-Fox
Listening to the Mavs' commentators during the last game they had a lot to say about Fox. They said the Kings didn't pick you know who because they were happy with the ball in Fox's hands. They went on to say that they didn't think "a team" could win with the ball in Fox's hands and that Fox does not look to distribute (he looks to score first).
Guards-Buddy
Several league insiders have commented that Hield looks out of shape. He has struggled on the court, going 7-for-26 overall and 3-for-15 from 3-point range through two games. That’s not a great sign for the Kings, who have Hield starting a four-year, $94 million extension next season.
– via Tim Bontemps @ ESPN
Guards-Boggy
Bodgan would be a good guard off the bench for another team. His defense is not starting caliber SG or SF. He should not have a 0-13 leash, but when your only other option is an out-of-shape Buddy, why not go with Jeffries?
Small-Ball
Walton's obsession with small-ball is over-the-top. We finally get Len ready to play and he played how many minutes? Bjelly is not a center. Holmes is doing a great job, but with Mr. Glass Bagley never playing we should look for a big that the coach will actually play.
Team Fit
The commentators for the Mavs also said the Kings have talented players, but they don't "mesh." With lineups like we are seeing, I'd have to agree.
Bubble
I hope we don't win a single game in the bubble now, the worse seeding the better.
Doncic is a generational superstar having the best sophomore year of any player ever. Jokic is the best passing big of all time who can also hit 3's. Grizzlies are a pretty solid defensive team with several of their key guys being legit two-way players. Morant also has JJJ and Jonas.V next to him, both guys are better than anyone on the Kings not named Fox. Those teams are also well coached.
At the end of the day, Vlade put a flawed and inconsistent team around Fox. His supposed Robin, Marvin Bagley hasn't been able to stay healthy. The shooters Vlade put around Fox: Hield, Bjelica, Bogie, and Barnes are all inconsistent and play bad defense with the exception of Barnes. Barnes has been a complete ghost on the court many times this year. Holmes is solid, but not a game changer. There are some good pieces on the bench. But this team is just not good as constructed and has way too many holes. Add in the poor coaching and its no surprise we aren't where those other teams are.
At the end of the day, Vlade put a flawed and inconsistent team around Fox. His supposed Robin, Marvin Bagley hasn't been able to stay healthy. The shooters Vlade put around Fox: Hield, Bjelica, Bogie, and Barnes are all inconsistent and play bad defense with the exception of Barnes. Barnes has been a complete ghost on the court many times this year. Holmes is solid, but not a game changer. There are some good pieces on the bench. But this team is just not good as constructed and has way too many holes. Add in the poor coaching and its no surprise we aren't where those other teams are.
Lol so we just dismiss a guy averaging 30/9 cause his team is bad, the second best player on that team is John Collins after that it’s Reddish and he’d be the 8th man on our team . Look at there roster they have the worst roster in the league nobody can create but him. We dismiss 30/9 average but when Fox gets 30 the praise is out of control ready to crown him. Fox couldn’t dream of running a team like Trae he’ll never run a team like Trae that stuff isn’t taught.
Yes Morant spent one more year in college but he’s the same age as Fox was in his rookie year. Also he was at a mid major jumping to the nba is a major jump,it shouldn’t matter if he spent another year in college he’s clearly ahead of Fox at the same age. Morant is another young pg that Fox can’t run an offense as good as. And I’d hope fox would kill Morant in head to head matchups it’s his 3rd yea vs a rookie wait till Morant 3rd year.
Yes Morant spent one more year in college but he’s the same age as Fox was in his rookie year. Also he was at a mid major jumping to the nba is a major jump,it shouldn’t matter if he spent another year in college he’s clearly ahead of Fox at the same age. Morant is another young pg that Fox can’t run an offense as good as. And I’d hope fox would kill Morant in head to head matchups it’s his 3rd yea vs a rookie wait till Morant 3rd year.
Morant is better than Fox was as a rookie. That shouldn’t be up for debate. Fox is better right now, but not a whole lot better. If I was a betting man Morant would be the guy I go with between the two without much thought.
Trae on the other hand is leagues better than Fox. His OBPM is more than triple that of Fox and he’s younger with less pro experience.
Trae on the other hand is leagues better than Fox. His OBPM is more than triple that of Fox and he’s younger with less pro experience.
The only way this team will ever become a playoff contending team is too build around the youth and don't overpay for these stop gap, win now veterans. i.e. Belicia, Barnes, Bogdan.
That means the hard decision to let go of higher priced veterans go, such as Parker, Bjeli, Bogdan, move Harrison Barnes (if possible) and re-sign Kent Bazemore to fill the SF at a more reasonable contract.
If Bogdan prices himself much higher than what the Kings had offered him last summer, you may need to let him walk. He is a nice mid-level player, but he is not a player that will put the Kings over the top. I don't see a tremendous amount of upside with Bogdan, whereas Buddy can still improve and possible become a steady 22+ppg player.
This team is not ready too be a mid-level playoff team, so they need to keep the young core intact and get rid of the higher priced older veterans. They need to stick to the younger guys with room to improve.
That means to stick with the younger guys like Fox, Bagley, Buddy, Holmes and pray Giles sticks around. I'm hoping Justin James and DaQuan Jeffries pan out. Draft a sharp shooter in Nesmith this draft to fill in backup SG/SF.
I would go out and run next year and re-establish our identity we had in the last year of Dave Joeger.
Kings Line up for 2020-21
PF: Bagley / Giles
SF: Bazemore (Or Barnes) / Jeffries / Nesmith
C: Holmes / Giles
SF: Buddy / James / Nesmith
PG: Fox / CoJo / Guy
That means the hard decision to let go of higher priced veterans go, such as Parker, Bjeli, Bogdan, move Harrison Barnes (if possible) and re-sign Kent Bazemore to fill the SF at a more reasonable contract.
If Bogdan prices himself much higher than what the Kings had offered him last summer, you may need to let him walk. He is a nice mid-level player, but he is not a player that will put the Kings over the top. I don't see a tremendous amount of upside with Bogdan, whereas Buddy can still improve and possible become a steady 22+ppg player.
This team is not ready too be a mid-level playoff team, so they need to keep the young core intact and get rid of the higher priced older veterans. They need to stick to the younger guys with room to improve.
That means to stick with the younger guys like Fox, Bagley, Buddy, Holmes and pray Giles sticks around. I'm hoping Justin James and DaQuan Jeffries pan out. Draft a sharp shooter in Nesmith this draft to fill in backup SG/SF.
I would go out and run next year and re-establish our identity we had in the last year of Dave Joeger.
Kings Line up for 2020-21
PF: Bagley / Giles
SF: Bazemore (Or Barnes) / Jeffries / Nesmith
C: Holmes / Giles
SF: Buddy / James / Nesmith
PG: Fox / CoJo / Guy
One reason the Kings have been stuck in "suck" forever is because we lose any good player than manages to come through for nothing. This team has absolutely 0 foresight when players are coming up for contracts and the usually end up really good talent walking.
Tyreke Evans? Didn't want to pay, traded for nothing
Isaiah Thomas? Was like $500k more/year than PDA wanted to pay. Let him walk for nothing
Boogie Cousins? Traded way too late, if the idea was to rebuild, should have been dealt 2 years earlier. Vlade even admitted he left value on the table. Pennies on the dollar trade
Seth Curry? Released because we just had to pay Matt Barnes
Gary Trent Jr? Turned himself into one of the better 3pt role players in the game. The rare rotation player found in the 2nd round, traded for future 2nd round picks.
Harry Giles? Not necessarily a good player yet, but certainly the 2nd or 3rd most potential on the current team and we declined his dirt cheap option to "motivate" him or something. Some chance we can keep him, but this shouldn't even be a discussion.
We just can't afford to let Bogdan walk at this point. We're pot committed to this core and letting Bogdan walk doesn't really open anything in terms of cap space, since Fox has the max extension coming the following year.
Tyreke Evans? Didn't want to pay, traded for nothing
Isaiah Thomas? Was like $500k more/year than PDA wanted to pay. Let him walk for nothing
Boogie Cousins? Traded way too late, if the idea was to rebuild, should have been dealt 2 years earlier. Vlade even admitted he left value on the table. Pennies on the dollar trade
Seth Curry? Released because we just had to pay Matt Barnes
Gary Trent Jr? Turned himself into one of the better 3pt role players in the game. The rare rotation player found in the 2nd round, traded for future 2nd round picks.
Harry Giles? Not necessarily a good player yet, but certainly the 2nd or 3rd most potential on the current team and we declined his dirt cheap option to "motivate" him or something. Some chance we can keep him, but this shouldn't even be a discussion.
We just can't afford to let Bogdan walk at this point. We're pot committed to this core and letting Bogdan walk doesn't really open anything in terms of cap space, since Fox has the max extension coming the following year.
I would have Bagley and Holmes as the centers with Bagley starting. Shift Barnes to SF, add another guy similar to Barnes but quicker. Giles and Len would also be bench guys to be used in situations. I would seriously see if Guy can play at this level by playing him now. We can’t have Cojo as the backup PG. Can’t run an offense but he’s a spot situation defender. He’s a combo 3 and D guy. I’d add to this roster some 6’8 to 6’9 wings. Need more length and athletic and commit to being quicker and longer overall. Just my 2 cents
It all really depends on what Bogdan wants in his contract. If he is demanding Buddy type money (i.e. around $20 mil/year), I would let him walk. No need to straddle yourself to a $20 million per year on a well rounded, but non-star quality player.
If he comes in at a reasonable amount, say $13-15 million per year, then I would retain him. But I wouldn't back up the Brinks truck to retain him. I feel that if Buddy is used properly (Like Joeger had him playing, ie. a catch and shoot scorer), Bogdan would become a high priced backup SG luxury.
If he comes in at a reasonable amount, say $13-15 million per year, then I would retain him. But I wouldn't back up the Brinks truck to retain him. I feel that if Buddy is used properly (Like Joeger had him playing, ie. a catch and shoot scorer), Bogdan would become a high priced backup SG luxury.
You're assuming Bogdan, or lets say, Bogdans agent will want him to stay. Nowadays even restricted FA's seem to get what they want. In no way can Vlade justify even paying Bogdan the extension he tried to sign him to. His potential goes beyond that number likely but they clearly have no idea how to get anything close to that value out of him. Multiple long term contracts on players being misused will really limit Vivkes options should he choose to go in another direction. He's already looking at Buddy and Barnes in the same boat and looming extensions on max rookies. Right now Walton is needlessly pitting Buddy and Bogdan against eachother with their usage. Splitting 40 minutes a game and reversing their roles won't work. If I'm Bogdan I tell Vlade thanks, but no thanks. You could see this problem coming but I had no idea that it would get this ridiculous. In a world where a coach chooses a 6 ppg journeyman PG over 2 of their most important players sharing the same position he put that same journeyman into, which isn't that journeymans to begin with. This is breaking down into a dumpster fire running on all cylinders with no common sense in sight.
He already turned down and extension around the 13 million a year mark. Now, obviously the world has changed and the salary cap might do the same and not to his benefit. That said, You'd have 30 million a year tied up in SG's that routinely get yanked in and out of the rotation so a lifelong role player in coach Walton can give a little back to his brethren as the team struggles to compete talent wise with the most lottery of teams.
I’m not dismissing him entirely. Just saying it goes both ways. Either you hold team success against a player or you don’t. Subjectively and arbitrarily applying rules based upon perceived talent level is a flawed way to do it.
ATL has talent. Whether they have as much or more than the KINGS can be debated. They also run their team differently than SAC does. Trae Young has more latitude to run the offense than Fox does. Same goes for Morant.
Regarding Trae Young, over 35 years of watching NBA basketball, I’ve seen many players average 25+ points per game and it not mean a damn thing. The player was a volume chucker. IMO, Young is just another in a long line of those types of players. I’ve seen nothing from him that convinces me he plays a winning style of ball right now.
Today’s players average even higher, more eye popping stats than ever before due to numerous rule changes heavily benefitting offensive players, along with massive focus on volume 3 pt shooting. So a dude like Young averaging 30 today is akin to someone averaging 22-24 back in the 90’s. In short, I’m not impressed.
Where are the wins? All I keep hearing are excuses. Well, if Boogie and Fox are gonna be constantly slammed around these parts because the KINGS don’t win more and don’t make the playoffs — it’s only fair to bring up the same criticisms and apply them to a player like Trae Young.
I believe the guy is a volume chucker that is also a major defensive liability. He’s just not that impactful of a player. For every streaky 28 foot shot he makes or nice assist, the dude cancels it out on the other end.
Anybody that’d take Young over Fox is doing so because of the flashy play and hype generated by the media. Fox is clearly the superior all-around player.
I loved Jason Williams like no other. Loved his moxy and flashy play. But Mike Bibby was a superior PG in terms of steady and reliable play and was much more of a winner.
Same applies to Fox and Young IMO.
Of course things can change and players can improve.
ATL has talent. Whether they have as much or more than the KINGS can be debated. They also run their team differently than SAC does. Trae Young has more latitude to run the offense than Fox does. Same goes for Morant.
Regarding Trae Young, over 35 years of watching NBA basketball, I’ve seen many players average 25+ points per game and it not mean a damn thing. The player was a volume chucker. IMO, Young is just another in a long line of those types of players. I’ve seen nothing from him that convinces me he plays a winning style of ball right now.
Today’s players average even higher, more eye popping stats than ever before due to numerous rule changes heavily benefitting offensive players, along with massive focus on volume 3 pt shooting. So a dude like Young averaging 30 today is akin to someone averaging 22-24 back in the 90’s. In short, I’m not impressed.
Where are the wins? All I keep hearing are excuses. Well, if Boogie and Fox are gonna be constantly slammed around these parts because the KINGS don’t win more and don’t make the playoffs — it’s only fair to bring up the same criticisms and apply them to a player like Trae Young.
I believe the guy is a volume chucker that is also a major defensive liability. He’s just not that impactful of a player. For every streaky 28 foot shot he makes or nice assist, the dude cancels it out on the other end.
Anybody that’d take Young over Fox is doing so because of the flashy play and hype generated by the media. Fox is clearly the superior all-around player.
I loved Jason Williams like no other. Loved his moxy and flashy play. But Mike Bibby was a superior PG in terms of steady and reliable play and was much more of a winner.
Same applies to Fox and Young IMO.
Of course things can change and players can improve.
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I can already tell you why. Lots of fans can tell you why. It’s been discussed ad nauseam for years. I touched upon it when talking about Boogie Cousins.
It’s because the team keeps effing up their draft choices, FA acquisitions, and coaching hires. End of story.
Each of those other players you mentioned went to franchises that weren’t mired in the midst of a 13 season playoff drought or hadn’t hired and fired a myriad of coaches in recent years and either already had talent on the team or acquired more talent after drafting those players.
Memphis had a nice core before they drafted Morant. Dallas sucked during #77’s rookie season, but have since managed to add a legit major piece to pair with him. Denver has been a stable franchise for quite some time. They also have an abundance of young core talent.
If you believe swapping Fox for any of those players you listed would magically make the KINGS just as good as the teams they left, you’re living in fantasyland.
Had Vlade drafted #77 and paired him with Fox as every rational and knowledgeable person thought they should do, how different might things look? And Fox would be the same player, no better or worse, regardless. Just in a better situation, as having two players of that caliber changes the game. And the KINGS weren’t able to make that happen during Boogie’s tenure and haven’t done it during Fox’s tenure thus far.
Additionally, those other teams have established stability the KINGS have yet to find. They all have better coaches. And they all haven’t blown all but about 2 or 3 first round draft picks the past 14 years.
Lastly, I find it a bit disingenuous or at the very least lacking a complete & total understanding by claiming those individual players led or were the sole or even primary reason those teams suddenly vaulted out of the lottery. As was outlined above, a lot more went into than just drafting those players.
There are your differences and your ‘deeper analysis’.
It’s because the team keeps effing up their draft choices, FA acquisitions, and coaching hires. End of story.
Each of those other players you mentioned went to franchises that weren’t mired in the midst of a 13 season playoff drought or hadn’t hired and fired a myriad of coaches in recent years and either already had talent on the team or acquired more talent after drafting those players.
Memphis had a nice core before they drafted Morant. Dallas sucked during #77’s rookie season, but have since managed to add a legit major piece to pair with him. Denver has been a stable franchise for quite some time. They also have an abundance of young core talent.
If you believe swapping Fox for any of those players you listed would magically make the KINGS just as good as the teams they left, you’re living in fantasyland.
Had Vlade drafted #77 and paired him with Fox as every rational and knowledgeable person thought they should do, how different might things look? And Fox would be the same player, no better or worse, regardless. Just in a better situation, as having two players of that caliber changes the game. And the KINGS weren’t able to make that happen during Boogie’s tenure and haven’t done it during Fox’s tenure thus far.
Additionally, those other teams have established stability the KINGS have yet to find. They all have better coaches. And they all haven’t blown all but about 2 or 3 first round draft picks the past 14 years.
Lastly, I find it a bit disingenuous or at the very least lacking a complete & total understanding by claiming those individual players led or were the sole or even primary reason those teams suddenly vaulted out of the lottery. As was outlined above, a lot more went into than just drafting those players.
There are your differences and your ‘deeper analysis’.
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He more than an alleged checker you’re claiming him to be, he runs an offense like a season bet was number two I believe in assists. When more talent comes he’ll still run the team maybe his PPG goes down to 22-25 but he’ll be more efficient. Fox wouldn’t look as good with roles reversed he can’t run a team like Trae and in his non existent jumper and it wouldn’t look pretty.
How is fox the superior talent what does he do better than Trae? Trae is the better shooter, passer , playmaker, off ball player, and the more impactful offensive player. Nobody is take fox over Young that lives outside of Sacramento.
say the goats damn name
How is fox the superior talent what does he do better than Trae? Trae is the better shooter, passer , playmaker, off ball player, and the more impactful offensive player. Nobody is take fox over Young that lives outside of Sacramento.
say the goats damn name