Bagley.
- Thread starter sactowndog
- Start date
I think it's fair to criticize him, because he gets lauded for the same line of thinking off the court.
Off the court, he (his family, really) has always taken a long term view on things. They jumped a class ahead, so he could get paid sooner. He talks about his gramps and about the short battery life of a pro athlete. He was the only player, who levered the India trip and was doing promo events on the side. He thinks long term, sees himself as an enterprise, not just a professional athlete.
All of those things are to be lauded. He is much more mature than I was when I was 20 years old.
But that kind of mindset will also lead to excess caution and load management. Not just now, but for the rest of his career. If he ends up having a mediocre career like Derrick Favors, he'll get killed for it. If he ends up becoming Kawahi, it'll be accepted. Time will tell.
Off the court, he (his family, really) has always taken a long term view on things. They jumped a class ahead, so he could get paid sooner. He talks about his gramps and about the short battery life of a pro athlete. He was the only player, who levered the India trip and was doing promo events on the side. He thinks long term, sees himself as an enterprise, not just a professional athlete.
All of those things are to be lauded. He is much more mature than I was when I was 20 years old.
But that kind of mindset will also lead to excess caution and load management. Not just now, but for the rest of his career. If he ends up having a mediocre career like Derrick Favors, he'll get killed for it. If he ends up becoming Kawahi, it'll be accepted. Time will tell.
My main issue with this is that teams are starting to plan against Fox and will for Bagley. But why on earth isn't every damn play a pick and roll with those two? It should be like CP3 and Chandler/Blake/Capella/Adams. Pick your poison. Either Fox takes it to the hole, gets a mid range jumper, or hits Bags for the oop. I don't get why this isn't exploited. That's why he was selected, right?
Honestly I don't think so. He has much more offensive versatility than those guys. Agree that the team should exploit the Fox and Bagley pNr, but it's not their main goal.
However, if you've noticed, Bagley and Hield are running a two man game quite a bit when they get a chance. This may be by design to help Buddy.
However, if you've noticed, Bagley and Hield are running a two man game quite a bit when they get a chance. This may be by design to help Buddy.
Consistency is the key here. Only two players in your lists managed 20 and 10 (adjusted for 36) in consecutive seasons. Christian Wood played like an All-Star in many games, including and not limited to, the monster game he had against the Kings and the major reason why the Kings got a L. He may be a 2nd round cast off to you, but his play suggests he is seriously underrated. Time will tell. But it's not at all a put down to be compared to Woods from last season and this, he is balling.
I reckon there are stamina and strategic reasons that Marjanovic isn't playing 30 mins a game, but he is dominant when the mathup allows him to be on the court. If his athleticism would have allowed him to play full time (like Bagley), he'd no doubt be an All-Star. Again, this guy is a good player.
Bottom line is, the numbers don't lie. Woods and Marjanovic are not scrubs by any means, they are very good players. while 20 and 10 is not everything, once a player reaches that level, he's in elite company. I honestly cannot think of one consistent 20 and 10 guy who didn't make the All-Star team. There may be a couple, but probably no more than that.
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I reckon there are stamina and strategic reasons that Marjanovic isn't playing 30 mins a game, but he is dominant when the mathup allows him to be on the court. If his athleticism would have allowed him to play full time (like Bagley), he'd no doubt be an All-Star. Again, this guy is a good player.
Bottom line is, the numbers don't lie. Woods and Marjanovic are not scrubs by any means, they are very good players. while 20 and 10 is not everything, once a player reaches that level, he's in elite company. I honestly cannot think of one consistent 20 and 10 guy who didn't make the All-Star team. There may be a couple, but probably no more than that.
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I dont like this message. Its looking pretty obvious that Marvin will never bever be nearly as good as Luka and thats okay for Marvin. He can be a productive player for Kings in a semi limited role but the message should be more of a "I wanted to come here, I dont think about other players I just want to make this team succesful". Of course he can say what he wants but basically saying he will be better than Luka he will just uphold the narrative of Luka vs Bagley and he most likely wont win that battle. If his problem is that fans are still mad about passing on Luka for him, keeping up the competition is probably not the smartest move
To me it sounds pretty clear if the tweet starts with "Marvin Bagleys message to Kings fans that wantes Luka Doncic and it continues with a Bagley quote of: "Once things start to come around, or I start putting up these good games, dont change positions". If the context is Bagley commenting about fans that wanted Luka before him and the message is this, to me it sounds a lot like "as soon as I will be better than him, dont switch positions" or something like that. I dont know how else to interpret that because why would anybody "switch positions" unless he became better than him (Luka)
If the comment is directed for fans that wanted Luka (rightfully) instead of him and the quote says "dont change positions when..." It seems he is saying that when hes going to be better than Luka, then "dont change positions". We cant know what he wanted to say but worded like that there seems to be quite exact message he is sending because the only reason one would "change positions" is if he actually became better than Luka. Otherwise there is no reason to "change positions"
I know, I'm probably the only person in this site that has defended Buddy (a player of OUR franchise) for the things he has said in the media but if a player has a problem with being compared to other player, saying comments that keeps the "comparison" alive that he wont win is not probably the smartest move.
I went ahead and pulled this data going back 10 years. Below are the players that have had at least two consecutive seasons averaging 20 & 10 per36 and had an all-star appearance at some point in their careers:
Nobody said Woods & Marjanovic are scrubs, but they are not all-star level players either. And like called out above, there are a fair amount of non all-stars who meet your "adjusted" criteria.
As for players who post 20 & 10 being in elite company, I think we operate from different definitions of the word "elite." Below are the players that posted 20 & 10 (no per36 adjustment):
I wouldn't consider any list that has player like Jefferson, Griffin, Love, Aldridge, etc. as "elite". If this list was only Giannis, Embiid, & Davis, then I'd agree.
As for a player posting 20 & 10 and not making an all star game, there have been 30 seasons/players in the past 10 years that have posted 20 & 10 (no per36 adjustment). 3 of them did not make an all star game :
And another 3 of them only got in because another all-star was injured that season:
Having said that, it's fair to say that if you post a 20 & 10, that you're likely going to make the all-star game (80% chance or 90% chance if you want to consider the injury substitutes). However, Bagley at 15 & 7 still has ways to go and you typically get enough minutes to post a 20 & 10 if you are in fact helping your team win on the court which, right now, Bagley has some catching up to do.
- Anthony Davis
- Blake Griffin
- DeMarcus Cousins
- Giannis Antetokounmpo
- Joel Embiid
- Karl-Anthony Towns
- Kevin Love
- LaMarcus Aldridge
- Nikola Jokic
- Nikola Vucevic
- Boban Marjanovic
- Christian Wood
- Enes Kanter
- John Collins
- Jonas Valanciunas
- Julius Randle
Nobody said Woods & Marjanovic are scrubs, but they are not all-star level players either. And like called out above, there are a fair amount of non all-stars who meet your "adjusted" criteria.
As for players who post 20 & 10 being in elite company, I think we operate from different definitions of the word "elite." Below are the players that posted 20 & 10 (no per36 adjustment):
- Giannis Antetokounmpo
- Joel Embiid
- Anthony Davis
- Dwight Howard
- Nikola Jokic
- Russell Westbrook
- Karl-Anthony Towns
- Nikola Vucevic
- DeMarcus Cousins
- LaMarcus Aldridge
- Kevin Love
- Blake Griffin
- Al Jefferson
I wouldn't consider any list that has player like Jefferson, Griffin, Love, Aldridge, etc. as "elite". If this list was only Giannis, Embiid, & Davis, then I'd agree.
As for a player posting 20 & 10 and not making an all star game, there have been 30 seasons/players in the past 10 years that have posted 20 & 10 (no per36 adjustment). 3 of them did not make an all star game :
- Karl-Anthony Towns (2016-17)
- DeMarcus Cousins (2013-14)
- Al Jefferson (2013-14)
And another 3 of them only got in because another all-star was injured that season:
- DeMarcus Cousins (2014-15)
- Anthony Davis (2013-14)
- Kevin Love (2010-11)
Having said that, it's fair to say that if you post a 20 & 10, that you're likely going to make the all-star game (80% chance or 90% chance if you want to consider the injury substitutes). However, Bagley at 15 & 7 still has ways to go and you typically get enough minutes to post a 20 & 10 if you are in fact helping your team win on the court which, right now, Bagley has some catching up to do.
You made a really long post that basically backs up what I said. If a player puts up 20 and 10, he is highly likely going to be an All Star.
I absolutely consider Love, Aldridge, and Griffin elite. These are max contract franchise players. That's about as elite as it gets. You seem to think only MVP level players are elite, that's fine. I don't.
Woods just murdered the Kings. He and Marjanovic are playing limited minutes but when they do get on the court, they've been making All-Star like impact. Now, there may be reasons why they can't get on the court full time, it doesn't matter, when they do get on the court, they've been
balling like All-Star caliber. Now, maybe their numbers are inflated because of match-ups, but it just proves my point - if Bagley can match their "inflated" numbers and if he can do so regardless of matchups; then that just shows his numbers are legit.
I never said if any old player's adjusted number comes out to 20 and 10, he is going to be an All-Star. Never. I said Bagley can get to 20 and 10 as a full time player and when that happens he is going to be in the conversation. Unlike Woods and Marjanovic, Bagley will for sure get 36 mpg at some point in his future (maybe the other two guys will too, but it is not a certainty). I predict he will maintain his scoring and rebounding pace, plus improvement in 3s, steals, and assists. He is going to be a full time starter that put up 20, 10, 35% 3pt, 2 steals, 1.5 blocks, 2.5 assists type of numbers. And he is going to be making a case for the All-Star game year in, year out. That's my prediction. I am not saying anyone who plays 2 mins and score 1 pt is going to be All-Star like you made it out to be.
That DOES NOT mean I am predicting Woods Marjanovic are going to be 20 & 10 and playing 36 mins!!!!!!!!!! Ok?! I am only talking about Bagley.
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