Carmichael Dave and "the sky is falling" crowd about the TWolves game

#91
Our third string got us back in the game during a blowout!!
I'm kinda glad Joerger didn't put the starters back in, even if it would have resulted in a higher chance of a win. Just wasn't worth disrespecting our third string for the extra small chance.
And even though the Leftover Pizza Guy only made 1 FG, he was in the top 5 in +/- !! Put some apple turnovers and air meatballs on that Mr. Napier!!
 
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#93
The Kings were not going to win last night. It is hard to beat a fairly talented team twice within the span of a week on the second of a back to back and relatively long travel. Boggy was out of sorts for the 3rd straight game. There was no defensive intensity. The Kings commit a lot of unforced fouls with handsy habits. You don't get consecutive stops when you keep giving the ref an excuse. Buddy came to play, but no one else among the starters did. I am not going to get worked up over what Joerger did, in fact, at halftime I said he should give the starters the rest of the night off.

The Kings are fairly predictable. When running on most to all cylinders offensively we are highly competitive. We overwhelm inferior teams. The offense show up 3 out of 5 nights, or to be generous 4 out of 5. On the 1 out of 5 nights they do not have the offensive juice, they do NOT have the defense to stay in the game. This is why we are not elite, yet. This is where the next step of the evolution needs to occur, from within and with a trade or free agent.

It is hard for us to win 95-90, heck even 100-95. We don't have the personnel, the strength, the size or rebounding to stay in games when we go through extended cold stretches. Shump would have helped last night but I doubt affected the outcome. If we have multiple players out of sorts offensively, no Bagley, games can get lopsided relatively fast. Willie is not going to step up and score 30 because Fox is off. Jackson is not going to score 25 when Buddy is cold. We need our top scorers to be mostly on (Buddy > Fox > Boggy > Bjelica). When this fails to occur, we don't have complementary players to pick up the slack, and more importantly we don't have the ability get consecutive stops to win "ugly", like Denver (blow out), in Milwaukee (blow out), the home game against the Lakers (pretty much non-competitive) and a few others.

Joerger knows this as well as anyone. He knows our half court offense is Bottom 5 and our rebounding is Bottom 5 (26th). That's why he is always telling them to run. He knows what his guys do well and what they don't. Now in the defense of the critics criticizing him, I think he was probably pondering what to do if the Kings got within 10 or less. We got the lead as low as 12 points. If the backups got the lead to 10 or less, at about the same time they would be due for a rest anyways, I think it is conceivable Joerger would have went back to Buddy and D-Fox at least. But he was never in the position to make that decision. Hypothetically, if the Kings would have made the Wolves nervous to this extent, I think I would have been critical for not going back to Fox and Buddy, and probably Bjelica too. But since we never got that close, and the lead quickly expanded to over 20 points, I have no bone to pick. Onto the next, bring on the Thunder.
 
#96
First, I just think it's ridiculous to attack Joerger for resting his starters. If the bench would have been good enough to get the game within 10 points with, say, seven or eight minutes remaining in the game, sure, I think Joerger would have put in the starters. But the bench wasn't good enough. The bench is pretty mediocre right now, imo. Joerger knows the pulse of this team. He knows whether guys are extremely tired or not. Deference has to be given to Joerger.
Ha, I pretty much said the same thing before reading this. Great minds and all....;)
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#99
If you watched Koufos when he went in, he was a gauge for me. I think everyone can agree that Koufos is going to give full effort every time on the court but last night he was extremely slow to the ball and to rotate every time. Just not in the cards last night. Focus on taking 2 of next 3 or all of them.
 
If you watched Koufos when he went in, he was a gauge for me. I think everyone can agree that Koufos is going to give full effort every time on the court but last night he was extremely slow to the ball and to rotate every time. Just not in the cards last night. Focus on taking 2 of next 3 or all of them.
When you play the Kings speed there are simply realities you have to face and that's just understood among coaches now. Pop notoriously rests his players. A coach can tell when his players are legit gassed or if they are dogging it. Kosta's motor lagging is a 100% reliable sign that this team just didn't have it tonight. I can't get angry at that. Hey. The Spurs do it.
 
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It was a bad game, and time to move on. The ADD will kick-in if the Kings somehow beat the Thunder. Gonna be tough without Bagley to shore up rebounding. 2-2 is not bad. 2-8 is bad and maybe worth worrying a little. 5-5 is the goal, and they're on schedule.
 
Wow total Crap. They were low minutes because the nuggets were blowing them out. It wasnt a close game. If the games were reversed it would have been the same outcome.

The fact that Buddy played 39 minutes the night before and was on fire the first half blows your theory.
Why they had less minutes is irrelevant to playing less minutes and playing better the next game.
 
I wonder what the top teams winning pct is on 2nd game of back-to-backs? Or what the overall average winning pct is on second game of back-to-backs. Kings are 2-5? If they win at that rate their remaining 8 they go 2-6 or 3-5 overall 4-11 or 5-10. How would that compare to the rest of the league? I wonder how may teams actually have winning records in the second of back to back games?
Toronto 6-0. 3 point shooting differential +2.8%

Denver 3-1. 3 point shooting differential -6.2

Milwaukee 5-0. 3 point shooting differential +5.7

Golden State 4-1 3 point shooting differential -.4

OKC. 3-1. 3 point shooting differential even

Indiana 5-0 3 point shooting differential +3.9

Philadelphia 1-5 3 point shooting differential -4.9

Boston 2-4 3 point shooting differential -3.8

Lakers 5-2. 3 point shooting differential -.5

Sacramento 2-5. 3 point shooting differential -6%
 
I think you have to weight those minutes by pace.
I don't have much sympathy for pro basketball players regarding conditioning.....pro soccer players run 3 to 4 times what a basketball player runs in a game, and require much more and longer sprinting. Even with back to backs they're running double the distance in one outing without as much rest. Suck it up, or work harder on conditioning.
 
Toronto 6-0. 3 point shooting differential +2.8%

Denver 3-1. 3 point shooting differential -6.2

Milwaukee 5-0. 3 point shooting differential +5.7

Golden State 4-1 3 point shooting differential -.4

OKC. 3-1. 3 point shooting differential even

Indiana 5-0 3 point shooting differential +3.9

Philadelphia 1-5 3 point shooting differential -4.9

Boston 2-4 3 point shooting differential -3.8

Lakers 5-2. 3 point shooting differential -.5

Sacramento 2-5. 3 point shooting differential -6%
One other point. Our 3 point percentage on 0 Days Rest 32.6% would be much worse if not for last nights game 36.8% and the Orlando game 36.4
 
I don't have much sympathy for pro basketball players regarding conditioning.....pro soccer players run 3 to 4 times what a basketball player runs in a game, and require much more and longer sprinting. Even with back to backs they're running double the distance in one outing without as much rest. Suck it up, or work harder on conditioning.
Totally irrelevant point. Their is no substituting in and out in soccer. Not comparable at all.
 
In fairness, Kings have a young team, they play a high pace, they are missing one starter and one key rotation player. Back to back games is an area for improvement next year - but surely can be forgiven this year for missing a few.

I think it's hard to compare basketball to soccer/ football. An NBA team will play 82 regular season games in different time zones, there is contact, they play on a hard surface, not much time to recover etc. The premier league is 38 games in 1 timezone with 1 to 2 games per week. It does get more complicated when you add in continental competitions, international breaks etc that impact some teams and players.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I don't have much sympathy for pro basketball players regarding conditioning.....pro soccer players run 3 to 4 times what a basketball player runs in a game, and require much more and longer sprinting. Even with back to backs they're running double the distance in one outing without as much rest. Suck it up, or work harder on conditioning.
Apples and rutabagas.
 
Totally irrelevant point. Their is no substituting in and out in soccer. Not comparable at all.
No substituting? Come back when you've actually watched a pro soccer game. Substituting is a strategically huge part of soccer. And the fact that there's less substituting drives the point home. Conditioning should not be whined about. And Of course its relevant, you're bringing up "pace" and therefore endurance and conditioning.
 
No substituting? Come back when you've actually watched a pro soccer game. Substituting is a strategically huge part of soccer. And the fact that there's less substituting drives the point home. Conditioning should not be whined about. And Of course its relevant, you're bringing up "pace" and therefore endurance and conditioning.
It's looking legit like we could be forming a ten man rotation. I don't see Yogi and Mason sitting. We have no lack of speed at any guard position or depth, we should exploit that. We have the engines to just run past the other team all game. And similarly maybe our anticipated logjam of superstar big men isn't a log jam but a 25-30 min per big per night run fest at super high efficiencies...

Fox
Bogi
Buddy
Shump
Belly
WCS
Yogi
Mason
Jackson
Bagley
Kosta
Giles

That's TWELVE players that I want seeing consistent minutes even just for fresh legs at times. The depth on this team is amazing an underrated.
 
In fairness, Kings have a young team, they play a high pace, they are missing one starter and one key rotation player. Back to back games is an area for improvement next year - but surely can be forgiven this year for missing a few.

I think it's hard to compare basketball to soccer/ football. An NBA team will play 82 regular season games in different time zones, there is contact, they play on a hard surface, not much time to recover etc. The premier league is 38 games in 1 timezone with 1 to 2 games per week. It does get more complicated when you add in continental competitions, international breaks etc that impact some teams and players.
I'm comparing conditioning....how tired an athlete gets. For warmups in soccer you might run a mile or 2; in basketball its liners.
 
I don't have much sympathy for pro basketball players regarding conditioning.....pro soccer players run 3 to 4 times what a basketball player runs in a game, and require much more and longer sprinting. Even with back to backs they're running double the distance in one outing without as much rest. Suck it up, or work harder on conditioning.
Interesting. As a fan of soccer, I see the point, but I do think it’s a different (not completely) type of conditioning.

Soccer players may run more, but I’m not entirely sure they SPRINT more. With the exception of midfielders, soccer athletes enjoy quite a bit of downtime at either end when extrapolated over 90’ plus stoppage time.

Whereas you don’t have the prevalence of commercial breaks and timeouts like the NBA, you DO have set pieces and physio breaks on the field to help keep the heart rate down.

An NBA player, in particular a player in a system like the Kings’, is in an almost constant state of sprinting while on the floor. You can point to 30 min instead of 90, but the increase in not only sprinting, but rapid jumping and also taking contact- its a different animal.

I think another way to explore the differences would be to look at Olympic athletes.

Look at the average body makeup of a marathoner (soccer), as opposed to a sprinter (NBA). The marathoner is generally thin, and sometimes almost sickly looking.

The sprinter is almost always Adonis-like, with cut muscles and that “soloflex” type build.

That’s one reason why many trainers these days advocate a HIIT method of cardio (High Intensity Interval Training) as opposed to distance running on a treadmill.

I would say soccer players = marathoners

NBA players = HIIT type sprinters

Two totally different beasts.
 
It's looking legit like we could be forming a ten man rotation. I don't see Yogi and Mason sitting. We have no lack of speed at any guard position or depth, we should exploit that. We have the engines to just run past the other team all game. And similarly maybe our anticipated logjam of superstar big men isn't a log jam but a 25-30 min per big per night run fest at super high efficiencies...

Fox
Bogi
Buddy
Shump
Belly
WCS
Yogi
Mason
Jackson
Bagley
Kosta



Gile
That's TWELVE players that I want seeing consistent minutes even just for fresh legs at times. The depth on this team is amazing an underrated.
.

I agree on deeper rotations - Joerger is pretty good with trusting his players right now.

But for this team, when shooting percentage goes down, defense must go up, and they need to improve by leaps and bounds defensively. Work in progress.
 
Interesting. As a fan of soccer, I see the point, but I do think it’s a different (not completely) type of conditioning.

Soccer players may run more, but I’m not entirely sure they SPRINT more. With the exception of midfielders, soccer athletes enjoy quite a bit of downtime at either end when extrapolated over 90’ plus stoppage time.

Whereas you don’t have the prevalence of commercial breaks and timeouts like the NBA, you DO have set pieces and physio breaks on the field to help keep the heart rate down.

An NBA player, in particular a player in a system like the Kings’, is in an almost constant state of sprinting while on the floor. You can point to 30 min instead of 90, but the increase in not only sprinting, but rapid jumping and also taking contact- its a different animal.

I think another way to explore the differences would be to look at Olympic athletes.

Look at the average body makeup of a marathoner (soccer), as opposed to a sprinter (NBA). The marathoner is generally thin, and sometimes almost sickly looking.

The sprinter is almost always Adonis-like, with cut muscles and that “soloflex” type build.

That’s one reason why many trainers these days advocate a HIIT method of cardio (High Intensity Interval Training) as opposed to distance running on a treadmill.

I would say soccer players = marathoners

NBA players = HIIT type sprinters

Two totally different beasts.
You're overthinking it. Sprinting is sprinting regardless of sport. Constant sprinting in basketball is just incorrect. Sprinting on fast breaks, yes, but usually only 2 or 3 players. On a made basket teams walk up the floor most of the time.
 
CarMichaelDave, just doesn’t get it does he? He doesn’t understand that some of these King’s fans are entitled to be entertained. They have been Kings fans for like a hundred years and have suffered extreme deprivation during most of that time, so they are entitled to be entertained each and every night. It’s not about the big picture, winning as many games as possible out of 82 games. It’s about seeing every single game as a must win, so that those fans can be entertained even if going all out and pushing the limits to win each individual game will lower the total win count.

This team is so far ahead of what anybody expected or projected, I just don’t get the emotional almost hysterical response to this one game. Why do they feel entitled to the instant gratification of winning every game? I’m not sure why the armchair warriors want to pick this hill to die on. The NBA schedule is punishing and physically draining. Good teams have been resting stars on back to backs for over a decade. Over-playing guys leads to more injuries. When you play so much and rest so little, your body doesn’t get enough time to rest and heal. This has been proven to make a player more likely to suffer an injury. The NBA rand the Player’s Association recognizes this and has taken some steps to rectify it and are still working on it.

The team left in a plane Saturday after a tough, exhausting loss to the Warriors, flew 3.5 hours, played Sunday, flew 2.5 hours played Monday, flying 4+ hours home, before finally a day off. They are already down Bagley and possibly Shumpert and now possibly Bogdanovic with a foot injury. In hindsight, maybe Bogdanovic should have played less if at all against the Wolves.

Joerger is looking at the big picture and maximizing this season. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. You take a split on the back-to-backs. You take 2 out of 3 when possible. Rather than shooting your wad on a game you have little chance of winning on a tough 3 of 4 nights and 2nd of a back to back road game, and coming up short, and then come out flat the next winnable game, or worse get a key player injured, you play the odds and play to take the wins that you have a high probability to win and if you win against the improbable, then that’s just house money at that point. You don’t sacrifice the chance to win the more probable games by throwing everything you have at a game to try and get an improbable win.
 
CarMichaelDave, just doesn’t get it does he? He doesn’t understand that some of these King’s fans are entitled to be entertained. They have been Kings fans for like a hundred years and have suffered extreme deprivation during most of that time, so they are entitled to be entertained each and every night. It’s not about the big picture, winning as many games as possible out of 82 games. It’s about seeing every single game as a must win, so that those fans can be entertained even if going all out and pushing the limits to win each individual game will lower the total win count.

This team is so far ahead of what anybody expected or projected, I just don’t get the emotional almost hysterical response to this one game. Why do they feel entitled to the instant gratification of winning every game? I’m not sure why the armchair warriors want to pick this hill to die on. The NBA schedule is punishing and physically draining. Good teams have been resting stars on back to backs for over a decade. Over-playing guys leads to more injuries. When you play so much and rest so little, your body doesn’t get enough time to rest and heal. This has been proven to make a player more likely to suffer an injury. The NBA rand the Player’s Association recognizes this and has taken some steps to rectify it and are still working on it.

The team left in a plane Saturday after a tough, exhausting loss to the Warriors, flew 3.5 hours, played Sunday, flew 2.5 hours played Monday, flying 4+ hours home, before finally a day off. They are already down Bagley and possibly Shumpert and now possibly Bogdanovic with a foot injury. In hindsight, maybe Bogdanovic should have played less if at all against the Wolves.

Joerger is looking at the big picture and maximizing this season. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. You take a split on the back-to-backs. You take 2 out of 3 when possible. Rather than shooting your wad on a game you have little chance of winning on a tough 3 of 4 nights and 2nd of a back to back road game, and coming up short, and then come out flat the next winnable game, or worse get a key player injured, you play the odds and play to take the wins that you have a high probability to win and if you win against the improbable, then that’s just house money at that point. You don’t sacrifice the chance to win the more probable games by throwing everything you have at a game to try and get an improbable win.
Some Kings fans have a certain amount of kvetch hardwired into them, and this season had been going so good there was a kvetch backup among some. So, they got a chance to open the gates and some of them just went a bit overboard with the kvetching. The good ones have already apologized. Mark the others for deletion.
 
Interesting. As a fan of soccer, I see the point, but I do think it’s a different (not completely) type of conditioning.

Soccer players may run more, but I’m not entirely sure they SPRINT more. With the exception of midfielders, soccer athletes enjoy quite a bit of downtime at either end when extrapolated over 90’ plus stoppage time.

Whereas you don’t have the prevalence of commercial breaks and timeouts like the NBA, you DO have set pieces and physio breaks on the field to help keep the heart rate down.

An NBA player, in particular a player in a system like the Kings’, is in an almost constant state of sprinting while on the floor. You can point to 30 min instead of 90, but the increase in not only sprinting, but rapid jumping and also taking contact- its a different animal.

I think another way to explore the differences would be to look at Olympic athletes.

Look at the average body makeup of a marathoner (soccer), as opposed to a sprinter (NBA). The marathoner is generally thin, and sometimes almost sickly looking.

The sprinter is almost always Adonis-like, with cut muscles and that “soloflex” type build.

That’s one reason why many trainers these days advocate a HIIT method of cardio (High Intensity Interval Training) as opposed to distance running on a treadmill.

I would say soccer players = marathoners

NBA players = HIIT type sprinters

Two totally different beasts.

I think this is a relatively common misconception about the nature of movement in soccer. While you do need a good aerobic base in order to play the sport, soccer requires much more than that. Here is a quote from an NFHS article:

"Most of the runs made in soccer are explosive, high-intensity runs, rather than long, slow runs. ... Aerobic conditioning should be performed in a different way rather than long- distance running. Instead of long-distance running, coaches should focus on short and more dynamic sprinting drills."

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/is-long-distance-running-really-important-in-soccer-training/