Cousins max deal or trade?

Packt

Packt

Starter
#61
#61
Demarcus is more a high level support player than a true star.

I believe there is a market value when it comes to players. The market value for a player like Demarcus is most likely max, baggage and all. I also believe there is room for a team to define what is important to them and whether that value should apply to them based on what they envision the team to be. If they re-sign him for max, it wouldn't bother me. If they want to trade him, go for it.
 
roasthawg

roasthawg

Starter
#62
#62
Such a tough call. As of year three Demarcus is a solid offensive/bad defensive center. He has shown the potential to be a great offensive center although he may always struggle defensively. Consistency has been his problem on offense. If you're just looking at on court production I think you pause and think long and hard about giving him a max deal. Taking into account the immaturity issues will make you think harder.

On his side is his avoiding significant injuries and being only 23 years old. I dunno... glad I don't have to make this decision. Tough calls right away for new ownership with Demarcus and Tyreke. Love to have them both but if these guys are young max players they sure haven't paid dividends yet.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#65
#65
Kingsfan23 said:
In my mind the max salary should be designated for unquestioned franchise players
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That's nice, but what's in your mind doesn't match up with the competitive landscape the Kings face. Its not even a question of what guys are worth. Just a question of what you have to pay them.
 
Telemachus

Telemachus

Starter
#66
#66
Kingsfan23 said:
In my mind the max salary should be designated for unquestioned franchise players
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The problem with this line of thinking is that centers usually fall under a different criteria than the rest of the league (good big men are HARD to find). Here is what many of the centers around the league made this past season:
Brook Lopez - $13.7
Tyson Chandler - $13.6
Joakim Noah - $11.1
Roy Hibbert - $13.7
Andrew Bynum - $16.5
Al Horford - $12
Nene - $13
Marc Gasol - $13.9
JaVale McGee - $10
Al Jefferson - $15
Andrew Bogut - $13.2
DeAndre Jordan - $10.5
Dwight Howard - $19.3

When you look at that list it doesn't seem like a stretch to offer Cousins a contract starting at $14.6 million. The truth is that big men with marginal talent get big contracts, and Cousins is loaded with talent.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#67
#67
Packt said:
Demarcus is more a high level support player than a true star.
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A 22 yr old who's already top 5 in the league at his position and has the skill to be the most talented and dominant big over the next decade is not a support player by any means. You build around Cuz, you don't use him to take a backseat and build around others.

Far too often some here look at what our 21-23 yr olds have accomplished, or not accomplished, under pee poor management and coaching in a toxic environment, then use that to project the rest of their careers. Is Cuz truly a star right now? No. But he clearly has the skill level and talent to break through this coming season or the following and reach true star status. Some is on him and continued maturity, some is one our new coach, GM and the supporting cast.

All the skill, all the talent, the dominance is there, just waiting to bubble over. The fact he hasn't be an All Star yet or we haven't been to the playoffs yet doesn't change any of that. Ignoring what he brings and thinking he's trade bait would be the most costly mistake this organization could make.

And this baggage argument is getting out of hand, has been for awhile. You know who else was one of the most talented bigs in the league when he came in and also had baggage? Webber. GS and Wash trading him due to his baggage sure worked out well for them, didn't it? And no one cared what those franchises might have stood for when moving him as if they were doing something noble. Over the next decade for the most part the only thing they really stood for was NBA lightweights with zero chance of contending.
 
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Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#68
#68
Big men demand an outrageous amounts of money. Several years ago or maybe decades ago, sigh, someone averaged out the salaries by position and it went from shortest to tallest by position which means in order starting at the lowest salary it went PG, SG, SF, PF, and center. I don't know if that still holds but clearly tall people make the most money.
 
jalfa

jalfa

Starter
#71
#71
in fairness to Ujiri and the rest of the Denver front office, they did a hell of a job with what they had at hands. there was no way Melo was going to play for them beyond the contract he had at the time and you'd be hard pressed to find a better haul for a franchise level than what the Nuggets netted for him. getting Iggy for Afflalo, Harrington and a protected first is a solid deal, too and the fact that they were willing to somewhat overpay for Nene before losing him as an asset is something that gives me hope for Tyreke's future. they weren't able to construct a contender in the three years they've had, but considering that they've also lost their franchise player in that time and managed to completely overhaul their locker room, steadily improve as far as the value of their assets is concerned and not miss the playoffs, I can't really fault them for that. I'd also say that they didn't necessarily have a smallball bias, but more that this was a product of the circumstances. they just never really were in a position where an impact level big guy was available and they decided to acquire as much high-level talent as they could, which also put them in a position to acquire such a guy, if one were to be made available.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#72
#72
roasthawg said:
Such a tough call. As of year three Demarcus is a solid offensive/bad defensive center. He has shown the potential to be a great offensive center although he may always struggle defensively. Consistency has been his problem on offense. If you're just looking at on court production I think you pause and think long and hard about giving him a max deal. Taking into account the immaturity issues will make you think harder.

On his side is his avoiding significant injuries and being only 23 years old. I dunno... glad I don't have to make this decision. Tough calls right away for new ownership with Demarcus and Tyreke. Love to have them both but if these guys are young max players they sure haven't paid dividends yet.
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Just for the sake of nit picking, Cousins won't be 23 years old till august 13th. I won't tell you how old I'll be on july 20th! Getting old is a *****!
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#74
#74
rainmaker said:
A 22 yr old who's already top 5 in the league at his position and has the skill to be the most talented and dominant big over the next decade is not a support player by any means. You build around Cuz, you don't use him to take a backseat and build around others.

Far too often some here look at what our 21-23 yr olds have accomplished, or not accomplished, under pee poor management and coaching in a toxic environment, then use that to project the rest of their careers. Is Cuz truly a star right now? No. But he clearly has the skill level and talent to break through this coming season or the following and reach true star status. Some is on him and continued maturity, some is one our new coach, GM and the supporting cast.

All the skill, all the talent, the dominance is there, just waiting to bubble over. The fact he hasn't be an All Star yet or we haven't been to the playoffs yet doesn't change any of that. Ignoring what he brings and thinking he's trade bait would be the most costly mistake this organization could make.

And this baggage argument is getting out of hand, has been for awhile. You know who else was one of the most talented bigs in the league when he came in and also had baggage? Webber. GS and Wash trading him due to his baggage sure worked out well for them, didn't it? And no one cared what those franchises might have stood for when moving him as if they were doing something noble. Over the next decade for the most part the only thing they really stood for was NBA lightweights with zero chance of contending.
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Back in the day, the San Francisco Warriors had a center that they felt they couldn't get along with. They felt he was disruptive to the team, so they traded him. They replaced him with Nate Thurmond, who was a very good center. A sometime all star, but he never won a championship and the other center, Wilt Chamberlain did! More than one!
 
roasthawg

roasthawg

Starter
#76
#76
bajaden said:
Just for the sake of nit picking, Cousins won't be 23 years old till august 13th. I won't tell you how old I'll be on july 20th! Getting old is a *****!
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I know and knew someone would call me out on that before I posted! I just turned 36 so no spring chicken myself!!
 
roasthawg

roasthawg

Starter
#77
#77
rainmaker said:
A 22 yr old who's already top 5 in the league at his position and has the skill to be the most talented and dominant big over the next decade is not a support player by any means. You build around Cuz, you don't use him to take a backseat and build around others.
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I hate bagging on our best player so I'm not gonna get too far into this but him being a top 5 center is debatable at this point. Inefficient and inconsistent scorer that plays no defense. Depends which other guys you wanna define as "centers" but Lopez, Howard, Duncan, Gasol, Monroe, Bosh all played a lot of center... Cousins was at an Al Jefferson level last year offensively and defensively he did nothing of note. I'm a huge Cousins fan and have been since Kentucky but I'm also realistic... the upside is there but the production is still a work in progress.
 
kupman

kupman

Starter
#79
#79
Bricklayer said:
Er, no. Not even now, let alone in the future.
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Not sure what you mean by this. DFC is not a "true star" right now. Perhaps he will never be one. The label "high support player" probably fits better right now. It's the same category that I would place other centers such as M. Gasol, B Lopez, Lee, Noah and Jefferson. Of this list, everyone except DFC and Jefferson have made at least on all star team.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#80
#80
kupman said:
Not sure what you mean by this. DFC is not a "true star" right now. Perhaps he will never be one. The label "high support player" probably fits better right now. It's the same category that I would place other centers such as M. Gasol, B Lopez, Lee, Noah and Jefferson. Of this list, everyone except DFC and Jefferson have made at least on all star team.
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There seems to be some conflation of "star" and "superstar" going on here, but no, support player will never be a label that applies to Cousins.

Support players have an m.o.. Gasol, and Noah are support players.

Nothing Cousins does or will ever do equates to support player. He is in all ways a flat out star type player. Now he may be a bad star, a young and inefficient one (although again for the 1000th time I shall note that he shot 50% from the field after the new year, neutering that argument). But its still star stuff. Star talent. Star game. You get your value out of him by giving him the ball and letting him do his thing. Like most star players, he cannot help or do his thing unless he's a focal point, not a support player.

It should be noted that star players are the NBA. By far, and its not even remotely close, the most important thing you can have in the NBA. But the flipside/irony is that a bad star, an aging one, an injured one, becomes worthless pretty quick. As long as a star is performing like a star there is nothing like him and if you wouldn't trade half your team of support players to get one you just don't get the NBA. But as soon as that star fades, they do not and have never had to do the things to make themselves useful as a lesser player. A roleplayer can typically age and still be useful as a lesser roleplayer. A star goes from star to A.I./Arenas out of the league in a blink. Cousins is clearly on the star track, but its a boom or bust track. He may not have fully crossed to the boom side of that equation, but he'll never be a support player or roleplayer.
 
lwc

lwc

Starter
#81
#81
Bricklayer said:
There seems to be some conflation of "star" and "superstar" going on here, but no, support player will never be a label that applies to Cousins.

Support players have an m.o.. Gasol, and Noah are support players.

Nothing Cousins does or will ever do equates to support player. He is in all ways a flat out star type player. Now he may be a bad star, a young and inefficient one (although again for the 1000th time I shall note that he shot 50% from the field after the new year, neutering that argument). But its still star stuff. Star talent. Star game. You get your value out of him by giving him the ball and letting him do his thing. Like most star players, he cannot help or do his thing unless he's a focal point, not a support player.

It should be noted that star players are the NBA. By far, and its not even remotely close, the most important thing you can have in the NBA. But the flipside/irony is that a bad star, an aging one, an injured one, becomes worthless pretty quick. As long as a star is performing like a star there is nothing like him and if you wouldn't trade half your team of support players to get one you just don't get the NBA. But as soon as that star fades, they do not and have never had to do the things to make themselves useful as a lesser player. A roleplayer can typically age and still be useful as a lesser roleplayer. A star goes from star to A.I./Arenas out of the league in a blink. Cousins is clearly on the star track, but its a boom or bust track. He may not have fully crossed to the boom side of that equation, but he'll never be a support player or roleplayer.
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I agree to an extent. In general, I agree. However, some guys like Jason Kidd and Grant Hill did a good job moving from Superstar to supporting player, but they both have/had high bball IQ. (JKidd's Bball IQ is off the charts!)
 
kupman

kupman

Starter
#82
#82
Bricklayer said:
There seems to be some conflation of "star" and "superstar" going on here, but no, support player will never be a label that applies to Cousins.

Support players have an m.o.. Gasol, and Noah are support players.

Nothing Cousins does or will ever do equates to support player. He is in all ways a flat out star type player. Now he may be a bad star, a young and inefficient one (although again for the 1000th time I shall note that he shot 50% from the field after the new year, neutering that argument). But its still star stuff. Star talent. Star game. You get your value out of him by giving him the ball and letting him do his thing. Like most star players, he cannot help or do his thing unless he's a focal point, not a support player.

It should be noted that star players are the NBA. By far, and its not even remotely close, the most important thing you can have in the NBA. But the flipside/irony is that a bad star, an aging one, an injured one, becomes worthless pretty quick. As long as a star is performing like a star there is nothing like him and if you wouldn't trade half your team of support players to get one you just don't get the NBA. But as soon as that star fades, they do not and have never had to do the things to make themselves useful as a lesser player. A roleplayer can typically age and still be useful as a lesser roleplayer. A star goes from star to A.I./Arenas out of the league in a blink. Cousins is clearly on the star track, but its a boom or bust track. He may not have fully crossed to the boom side of that equation, but he'll never be a support player or roleplayer.
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As usual - strong re-buttal.

2 things in response:

1) if the Bulls call me and say that they would like to do a sign and trade - Noah for DFC - I would probably do it. If I call them with the same offer tonight - I doubt that they would bite. This says something.

2) DFC's career could go the Al Jefferson route: drafted young with high hopes. Solid career, but never really lived-up to the hope to date. I emphasize the word "could" here.
 
jalfa

jalfa

Starter
#83
#83
kupman said:
As usual - strong re-buttal.

2 things in response:

1) if the Bulls call me and say that they would like to do a sign and trade - Noah for DFC - I would probably do it. If I call them with the same offer tonight - I doubt that they would bite. This says something.

2) DFC's career could go the Al Jefferson route: drafted young with high hopes. Solid career, but never really lived-up to the hope to date. I emphasize the word "could" here.
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that, I wouldn't be sure about. the perceived weaknesses of Cousins are precisely those things the Bulls could help with. a strong locker room and an elite coach, team mates that would help cover up his weaknesses and a winning culture located in the only top three market without another NBA team. there's no place where Cuz would be more likely to clean his act up. the Bulls' biggest foil on the way to a title are the Heat. you've seen what Hibbert could do to them, now imagine Cuz in that spot. plus they'd have the opportunity to pair up Rose with a monster of a front court partner, a tandem that could dominate the league for years, with the right role players (Deng, Butler, Gibson) around them. add to that Noah's injury concerns and it becomes kind of a slamdunk for the Bulls.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#84
#84
kupman said:
As usual - strong re-buttal.

2 things in response:

1) if the Bulls call me and say that they would like to do a sign and trade - Noah for DFC - I would probably do it. If I call them with the same offer tonight - I doubt that they would bite. This says something.

2) DFC's career could go the Al Jefferson route: drafted young with high hopes. Solid career, but never really lived-up to the hope to date. I emphasize the word "could" here.
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There are MAYBE a handful of players in the NBA that their respective teams wouldnt trade straight up for Cousins. Noah isn't one of them.
 
OptimusRhyme

OptimusRhyme

Jive Turkey
#86
#86
roasthawg said:
I hate bagging on our best player so I'm not gonna get too far into this but him being a top 5 center is debatable at this point. Inefficient and inconsistent scorer that plays no defense. Depends which other guys you wanna define as "centers" but Lopez, Howard, Duncan, Gasol, Monroe, Bosh all played a lot of center... Cousins was at an Al Jefferson level last year offensively and defensively he did nothing of note. I'm a huge Cousins fan and have been since Kentucky but I'm also realistic... the upside is there but the production is still a work in progress.
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I agree, right now in my mind.. Dwight, M.Gasol, Hibbert, Noah, Duncan, Monroe are all above Cuz IMO. But for me Defensive Impact is huge when it comes too how good a big is. If DMC can raise is shooting percentages up and start playing at least respectable defense.. then I can add him too that list of Centers.. But untill then theres no way he is a top 5 center. Especially putting the stats up he has on a losing team... I do like DMC as a player and I hope he dominates this year and takes the next step as a Center, because i realize hes our one hope, hes our Luke Skywalker. Actually maybe more like our Darth Vader... luckily Darth figured out what was right in the end and redeemed himself.

I wish we had time (a cuple months of games) too evaluate how his attitude has changed before we give him the Max Contract. But if that isnt the reality and the Coach,Owner and GM have stated Cousins is our future. Then they have too put there money where their mouth is and Pay Cuz. Or else it seems like we are already starting off with these mind games as a franchise... Tough spot too be in...

I think a defensive presence beside DMC could make all the difference and helping his defensive struggles. That Should be a top priority this offseason.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#87
#87
kupman said:
As usual - strong re-buttal.

1) if the Bulls call me and say that they would like to do a sign and trade - Noah for DFC - I would probably do it. If I call them with the same offer tonight - I doubt that they would bite. This says something.
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No it doesn't. You're making an assumption that you can't possibly be certain about. While you might value Noah over DMC, that doesn't mean everyone does, especially actual GM's that do this for a living.

I personally like Noah A LOT. I was pissed when he was drafted 1 spot before the Kings were on the clock. He's a great player and I'd love to have him. But, like Brick, no way would I trade Cousins for him.
 
OptimusRhyme

OptimusRhyme

Jive Turkey
#88
#88
KingsFanSince85 said:
No it doesn't. You're making an assumption that you can't possibly be certain about. While you might value Noah over DMC, that doesn't mean everyone does, especially actual GM's that do this for a living.

I personally like Noah A LOT. I was pissed when he was drafted 1 spot before the Kings were on the clock. He's a great player and I'd love to have him. But, like Brick, no way would I trade Cousins for him.
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I dunno man.. Noah is the defensive anchor on one of the best defensive teams in the league... Noah- 2.1 BPG, 11.1 RPG, 1.2 SPG, 4APG, 12 PPG Career 50 FG % shooter... Career 1.63 TOPG.... Noahs Defense and passing more then makes up for Cousins advantage on offense... Plus hes not that big of a headcase. If it wasnt for Noahs Injury problems I would sit down and seriously consider a Cuz for Noah Trade.... But I guess I just value defense more then offense..
 
HndsmCelt

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#89
#89
OptimusRhyme said:
I dunno man.. Noah is the defensive anchor on one of the best defensive teams in the league... Noah- 2.1 BPG, 11.1 RPG, 1.2 SPG, 4APG, 12 PPG Career 50 FG % shooter... Career 1.63 TOPG.... Noahs Defense and passing more then makes up for Cousins advantage on offense... Plus hes not that big of a headcase. If it wasnt for Noahs Injury problems I would sit down and seriously consider a Cuz for Noah Trade.... But I guess I just value defense more then offense..
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Once you lay down the "IF" you lose. fact is Noah HAS injury problems and DMC does not. Do you really want to compare Grant Hills career with Reggie Millers? There is no reason to believe Noah will not continue to have health issues as he ages and any team hanging their hat on his talent will likely get wet in the rain. On the other hand DMC would hardly be the first player to mature with age.
 
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bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#90
#90
OptimusRhyme said:
I dunno man.. Noah is the defensive anchor on one of the best defensive teams in the league... Noah- 2.1 BPG, 11.1 RPG, 1.2 SPG, 4APG, 12 PPG Career 50 FG % shooter... Career 1.63 TOPG.... Noahs Defense and passing more then makes up for Cousins advantage on offense... Plus hes not that big of a headcase. If it wasnt for Noahs Injury problems I would sit down and seriously consider a Cuz for Noah Trade.... But I guess I just value defense more then offense..
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I don't think you can make the assumption that Cousins will never be a good defensvive player. I certainly agree that he'll never be a prolific shotblocker, but I do think he can be a good man defender. He's only 22 years old, and he's had to suffer through two head coaches that never got his attention. I won't go into why! But I do think we can safely assume that Noah, who I love, will never be a great offensive player. In short, what you see with Noah, is what your going to get. What you see with Cousins, is just the tip of the iceberg.

Cousins has greatness in him. Whether he'll ever acheive that greatness is up to him, but its there. Not many players have that. Most that do, usually become stars, and some superstars. There are some that disappoint, like Derrick Coleman (suffered from the Syacuse curse) that was a very good player, but could have been a HOF player. In short, I would never trade Cousins for Noah. And believe me, I'd love to have Noah and put him along side Cousins.
 
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