With the 7th pick in the 2011 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select .....

I read most of the comments and I just disagree. Not sure his workout partners in the video are a true representation of what he'll face in the NBA to begin with. With his slow release, it just takes that much more space to shoot and just that much more effort to create that space. The most effective scorers have lightning quick releases. Even if you cross someone over, that close time of the defender is going to be so much faster in the NBA. He can be very valuable in the NBA with how good a shooter he is. However, I think his star potential is extremely limited.

People said that Curry was too small and not athletic enough to be effective in the NBA. I argued against this constantly based on the fact that Curry was getting his shot off so quick. I want Jimmer to be able to do the same thing. I just don't see it though.
Are you basing all this off the youtube clip? There are people here who have seen Jimmer play countless times, and have seen just about every defense thrown at him at the college level, and he has never had a problem getting his shot off, even without not having a single teammate which other teams needed to respect.

Are you also basing your opinion that he doesn't have star potential on this same video? Sorry, but it sounds like you've never seen him play, saw the clip from the workout, and are basing your entire opinion on his future on that clip, instead of the opinions of others who've seen him play countless times.

I'll let you in on a little secret: great shooters don't shoot the ball at the same speed every time. The stroke on a wide open catch and shoot 3 pointer will be slower than coming off a screen for a stop and pop. Depending on the defense, a shooter will change his arc, release point, and speed of stroke. The mechanics are still the same, and it's still fluid, but great shooters can speed up their stroke, and put more arc on the shot or release at a higher point if under pressure. Of course when bad shooters try this, their mechanics get all messed up, and that's why they miss left, right, short and long.
 
I hate comparisons

Some comparisons from so called experts:
Blake Griffin - Antonio McDyess
Hasheem Thabeet - Dikembe Mutombo
James Harden - Manu Ginobili/Brandon Roy
Derrick Rose - Dwyane Wade/Jason Kidd
Michael Beasley - Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook - Rajon Rondo/Monta Ellis
Eric Gordon - Mitch Richmond
Andrea Bargnani - Dirk Nowitzki
Adam Morrison - Larry Bird
Brandon Roy - Jalen Rose
Randy Foye - Chauncey Billups
Patrick OBryant - Brad Daugherty

Kings Comparisons
Quincy Douby - Steve Kerr
Spencer Hawes - Brad Miller
Jason Thompson - Jason Smith
Tyreke Evans - Jamal Crawford/Larry Hughes
DeMarcus Cousins - Eddy Curry/Benoit Benjamin

sorry about spelling
 
^^^^^
When I was watching OKC throughout the playoffs, I constantly thought Harden looked like a younger Ginobili, without ever having heard that comparison. I think they are very similar, almost earily similar in style. I'd also say Gordon is a lot like Mitch. I do get your point though. Most comparisons aren't close, and are based on skin color half the time.
 
^^^^^
When I was watching OKC throughout the playoffs, I constantly thought Harden looked like a younger Ginobili, without ever having heard that comparison. I think they are very similar, almost earily similar in style. I'd also say Gordon is a lot like Mitch. I do get your point though. Most comparisons aren't close, and are based on skin color half the time.
yea, Harden is the black Ginobli

Both lefties, both are extremely crafty, both have that stop and pop J, can finish at the rim, and can find open teammates
 
Are you basing all this off the youtube clip? There are people here who have seen Jimmer play countless times, and have seen just about every defense thrown at him at the college level, and he has never had a problem getting his shot off, even without not having a single teammate which other teams needed to respect.

Are you also basing your opinion that he doesn't have star potential on this same video? Sorry, but it sounds like you've never seen him play, saw the clip from the workout, and are basing your entire opinion on his future on that clip, instead of the opinions of others who've seen him play countless times.

I'll let you in on a little secret: great shooters don't shoot the ball at the same speed every time. The stroke on a wide open catch and shoot 3 pointer will be slower than coming off a screen for a stop and pop. Depending on the defense, a shooter will change his arc, release point, and speed of stroke. The mechanics are still the same, and it's still fluid, but great shooters can speed up their stroke, and put more arc on the shot or release at a higher point if under pressure. Of course when bad shooters try this, their mechanics get all messed up, and that's why they miss left, right, short and long.

I've seen Jimmer play multiple times. When there is so much talk about a player, I make sure to take an extra careful look. Especially when the Kings have been guaranteed to draft high the last few years. I enjoy watching him and I wouldn't be upset if we drafted him. That being said, you wouldn't need to bring a player in for workouts if you could base your decision solely on his college games. These workouts are where you're looking for specific situations where you can run a controlled evaluation. Eliminate as many variables as possible and focus on a players mechanics and skill sets. So that's how I approached the video. Shooting every shot in that clip on his way down stood out.

I'll let you in on a little secret: Players who have a natural quick release vary their shot and release point a lot less, because the defender is less likely to be able to force them to. If your natural motion is to release the shot on the way down, your shooting percentage will go down on every other type of shot you take.

I have the ability to put the video in perspective. This is why I referenced the video specifically, rather than make a blanket statement. I also have the ability to watch a player in different settings and form an educated evaluation of his skills. Just because I don't come to the same conclusion as you, does not mean that I some how don't understand what I'm watching. So no need to be condescending when you respond to my post.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Sorry to take the discussion back a step, but I'm watching video of the workout with Jimmer shooting the ball. It goes in every time and the shot is smooth and impressive. I'm a big fan of shooters and we desperately need a few. However, am I the only one noticing how much hang time he has on his shot and how slow the release is? That is alarming to me, because the space between you and the defender in the NBA is going to shrink significantly from college. I'm not judging athleticism or quickness or anything like that. Just a simple shot release time. It doesn't pass the eyeball test for a guy who can create on his own shot. It looks like he'll have to come off screens to me as well. If we draft him, I wouldn't mind being wrong about this, but I don't think I am.
Don't know what to say. I've seen slow releases, like Terrance Jones has. But Jimmer's jumpshot is almost picture perfect, and there's nothing slow about his release. Were talking about a guy that got his shot off while be double teamed all year long. Jimmer gets great elevation on his jumpshot, and unlike a lot of players, he shoots the ball at the top of his elevation. A lot of players release the ball early, or late. Jimmer's release is perfect. Because he releases the ball at the top, it may appear to you that its slow because of that. I've watched him play in almost every game for the last two years, and in all those games, I never once saw his jumpshot get blocked.. But what do I know? Two years ago people were telling me that Blake Griffin didn't pass the eye test and that he wasn't ver athletic.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I've seen Jimmer play multiple times. When there is so much talk about a player, I make sure to take an extra careful look. Especially when the Kings have been guaranteed to draft high the last few years. I enjoy watching him and I wouldn't be upset if we drafted him. That being said, you wouldn't need to bring a player in for workouts if you could base your decision solely on his college games. These workouts are where you're looking for specific situations where you can run a controlled evaluation. Eliminate as many variables as possible and focus on a players mechanics and skill sets. So that's how I approached the video. Shooting every shot in that clip on his way down stood out.

I'll let you in on a little secret: Players who have a natural quick release vary their shot and release point a lot less, because the defender is less likely to be able to force them to. If your natural motion is to release the shot on the way down, your shooting percentage will go down on every other type of shot you take.

I have the ability to put the video in perspective. This is why I referenced the video specifically, rather than make a blanket statement. I also have the ability to watch a player in different settings and form an educated evaluation of his skills. Just because I don't come to the same conclusion as you, does not mean that I some how don't understand what I'm watching. So no need to be condescending when you respond to my post.
I can assure you that they didn't bring in other players to see if Jimmer could shoot the ball. And by the way, Jimmer has a very consistent release point, which I alluded to in my other post. In Jimmer's case, I'm sure they wanted to see how he would guard another quick guard. Which is why they brought in Culpepper. The final thing I'll say on this matter, is that shooting in a drill is not the same as game conditions. Its a far more relaxed atmosphere. So I don't place a lot of value on it as far as judging how a player can create his own shot.

If you've actually watched Jimmer play during the season as you say you have, then I don't know what to say to you. I'll just leave it at that.
 
I can assure you that they didn't bring in other players to see if Jimmer could shoot the ball. And by the way, Jimmer has a very consistent release point, which I alluded to in my other post. In Jimmer's case, I'm sure they wanted to see how he would guard another quick guard. Which is why they brought in Culpepper. The final thing I'll say on this matter, is that shooting in a drill is not the same as game conditions. Its a far more relaxed atmosphere. So I don't place a lot of value on it as far as judging how a player can create his own shot.

If you've actually watched Jimmer play during the season as you say you have, then I don't know what to say to you. I'll just leave it at that.
Fair enough. If you have watched almost every game he played this year, then I'm sure you're confident about what you see. I don't have a dislike for the guy, so if he is everything people are saying he is, then I want him on my team. I just see something that stands out to me. There is not a player in the draft that can't be critiqued. Jumping high on a jump shot can be seen as a negative because it's an energy drain. My point is that there is a lot of different ways to analyze what you see. I'm not emotionally invested (fan) in Jimmer and I'm trying to be objective. With so many folks on the board absolutely sure that his skills will transfer, I will try to let it go.

But it just begs the question, why is he projected to be drafted so low in a weak draft class when we're assured of offensive dominance?
 
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Ok, back to who Kings might draft instead of who "we" think they should pick at #7. Today Jerry Reynolds on Napear's radio show seemed to hint that Fredette was certainly in the mix and had a good workout but... I got the impression that it's still very open on who Kings take at this point. He mentioned Kawhi Leonard as next up for Kings workout and Amick is still projecting the San Diego St. small forward as Kings selection in his latest Mock Draft 2.0 at SI.com. Reynolds also mentioned two of three most likely top 10 "Euros" (his phrase) in PFs Jan Vesely and Jonas Valanciunas. He seemed to discount them a bit as having some scheduling issues and maybe not coming in for Kings workouts. He also seemed a bit mixed up on knowing where Vesely and Valanciunas were born, saying Jan was from "Czechoslovakia" instead of Czech Republic. He did not mention Kanter or Byambio (nor Walker for that matter) but it was kind of a short interview and in typical Jerry style went all over the place with lots of quips and unrelated banter. Basically, said that after top 2 or so picks it was more of a crap shoot since there was not much difference between say a #5 and a #20 or even a #30 - at least in his opinion.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
In other words, Jerry didn't say anything which is exactly what he should be doing. I'm curious as to the international players as I don't believe for one minute that they aren't in the mix. We'll see how things play out as I also don't think Petrie would draft anyone he hasn't seen nor should he. Interesting.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Fair enough. If you have watched almost every game he played this year, then I'm sure you're confident about what you see. I don't have a dislike for the guy, so if he is everything people are saying he is, then I want him on my team. I just see something that stands out to me. There is not a player in the draft that can't be critiqued. Jumping high on a jump shot can be seen as a negative because it's an energy drain. My point is that there is a lot of different ways to analyze what you see. I'm not emotionally invested (fan) in Jimmer and I'm trying to be objective. With so many folks on the board absolutely sure that his skills will transfer, I will try to let it go.

But it just begs the question, why is he projected to be drafted so low in a weak draft class when we're assured of offensive dominance?
The reason he's projected low is because of his percieved lack of athleticism and the fact he didn't play any defense at BYU. I'm not going to go into why again, but if you watched any of the games, you didn't see much defensive effort from Jimmer. I don't know if you remember the draft with Curry, but he wasn't originally projected very high either, and for the same reasons. I heard all kind of criticism about Curry not being able to create his own shot. I'm not saying That Fredette will be as good as Curry. But I'm not saying he won't either. Hell, the Kings might go in an entirely different direction, and make this conversation irrelevant.

Anyway, the last thing I'm worried about is Jimmer's offense. He's very good at creating space for himself, and to be honest, I think he'll have an easier time getting his shot in the NBA than he did at BYU.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Ok, back to who Kings might draft instead of who "we" think they should pick at #7. Today Jerry Reynolds on Napear's radio show seemed to hint that Fredette was certainly in the mix and had a good workout but... I got the impression that it's still very open on who Kings take at this point. He mentioned Kawhi Leonard as next up for Kings workout and Amick is still projecting the San Diego St. small forward as Kings selection in his latest Mock Draft 2.0 at SI.com. Reynolds also mentioned two of three most likely top 10 "Euros" (his phrase) in PFs Jan Vesely and Jonas Valanciunas. He seemed to discount them a bit as having some scheduling issues and maybe not coming in for Kings workouts. He also seemed a bit mixed up on knowing where Vesely and Valanciunas were born, saying Jan was from "Czechoslovakia" instead of Czech Republic. He did not mention Kanter or Byambio (nor Walker for that matter) but it was kind of a short interview and in typical Jerry style went all over the place with lots of quips and unrelated banter. Basically, said that after top 2 or so picks it was more of a crap shoot since there was not much difference between say a #5 and a #20 or even a #30 - at least in his opinion.
I doubt your going to get a straight answer out of anyone on the Kings about who they like and don't like. Their all playing poker at this time of the year. I think I heard something about Valanciunas and Vesely not working out for any of the teams here in the US before the draft. I think thats why a few of the teams are over in europe right now, to see them play and then workout.
 
But it just begs the question, why is he projected to be drafted so low in a weak draft class when we're assured of offensive dominance?
My answer to this would be that he isnt projected so low. After Williams and Irving ... its really just a matter of who you like.

When your looking at a mock draft, its easy to look at it and see the huge gap between 3-14, when in reality all of these players are so close. Thats why in a draft like this, I feel like workouts are extremely important. More for the dinners and interviews then the actual workout. Fredette is very good at selling himself, which is why I'm not surprised he is 'rising' in the mocks.

And this isnt to say that he doesnt deserve to rise, but when the talent gap is so small, and you have a player who brings a lot of fanfare and is smart guy ( He IS a senior after all ) ... It make sense that he would rise the way he has.
 
Unless Kanter or Knight drops to 7, I'm most interested in Fredette and Tristan Thompson right now.

Thompson's stats are eerily similar to Favors from last year, both as freshman. Thompson is an inch shorter. That's it. I'd argue their competition was similar as well.

Favors:
PPG APG 3P% RPG BPG SPG
12.4 1 .000 8.4 2.1 0.9

Thompson:
PPG APG 3P% RPG BPG SPG
13.1 1.3 .000 7.8 2.4 0.9


Fredette is going to be a good pro. He has a lethal NBA ready perimeter shot - think about how much guys like Korver are in demand. Fredette is already there, imo.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Unless Kanter or Knight drops to 7, I'm most interested in Fredette and Tristan Thompson right now.

Thompson's stats are eerily similar to Favors from last year, both as freshman. Thompson is an inch shorter. That's it. I'd argue their competition was similar as well.

Favors:
PPG APG 3P% RPG BPG SPG
12.4 1 .000 8.4 2.1 0.9

Thompson:
PPG APG 3P% RPG BPG SPG
13.1 1.3 .000 7.8 2.4 0.9


Fredette is going to be a good pro. He has a lethal NBA ready perimeter shot - think about how much guys like Korver are in demand. Fredette is already there, imo.
I think Thompson is going to be a good player, but he's very raw right now. I think he can get some minutes due to his rebounding and defensive abilities, but offensively he doesn't have much game away from the basket. I was surprised when he declared for the draft. The thing is, we don't really need him, and we do need a defensive SF, and a PG that can handle the ball and shoot the ball. So I think if you have to choose between Fredette and Thompson, you go with Fredette. Ditto, Knight. Now if your choice is between Fredette and Leonard, then its a more difficult choice.
 
I hate comparisons

Some comparisons from so called experts:
Blake Griffin - Antonio McDyess
Hasheem Thabeet - Dikembe Mutombo
James Harden - Manu Ginobili/Brandon Roy
Derrick Rose - Dwyane Wade/Jason Kidd
Michael Beasley - Carmelo Anthony
Russell Westbrook - Rajon Rondo/Monta Ellis
Eric Gordon - Mitch Richmond
Andrea Bargnani - Dirk Nowitzki
Adam Morrison - Larry Bird
Brandon Roy - Jalen Rose
Randy Foye - Chauncey Billups
Patrick OBryant - Brad Daugherty
Hit or miss. Some of them are dead on. Griffin's numbers are dead on with McDyess in his best years in Denver before his injury destroyed him. Griffin still has plenty of time to blow out that knee if he wants to reach the current McDyess status ;)
 
I think Thompson is going to be a good player, but he's very raw right now. I think he can get some minutes due to his rebounding and defensive abilities, but offensively he doesn't have much game away from the basket. I was surprised when he declared for the draft. The thing is, we don't really need him, and we do need a defensive SF, and a PG that can handle the ball and shoot the ball. So I think if you have to choose between Fredette and Thompson, you go with Fredette. Ditto, Knight. Now if your choice is between Fredette and Leonard, then its a more difficult choice.
Really? Even that seems to be a no-brainer to me. The Kings biggest NEEDS are 3 point shooters. Specifically at the 1 and 3. Yes, defense is needed EVERYWHERE, but schemes within a TEAM defense is more what this team needs to become better defensively. We have plenty of players that are high quality defenders, but aside from Cisco and maybe Casspi, there really isn't a CONSISTENT deep ball threat when left wide open.

I think Jimmer fills in nearly every hole skill-wise this team is currently looking for in a player. I totaly agree with MassKingsfan. There is little to no difference between 3-15 in this draft. It's about FIT and who you like. I don't like Leonard, at least not on the Kings with our current personnel. He's a square peg, for a round hole. Jimmer is a round peg to a round hole.

In fact, I think the Kings ought to target PG's with at least 2 out of their 3 if not all 3 of their picks. Because I see PG as being the best player with the skill-sets we're looking to add to the roster.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Really? Even that seems to be a no-brainer to me. The Kings biggest NEEDS are 3 point shooters. Specifically at the 1 and 3. Yes, defense is needed EVERYWHERE, but schemes within a TEAM defense is more what this team needs to become better defensively. We have plenty of players that are high quality defenders, but aside from Cisco and maybe Casspi, there really isn't a CONSISTENT deep ball threat when left wide open.

I think Jimmer fills in nearly every hole skill-wise this team is currently looking for in a player. I totaly agree with MassKingsfan. There is little to no difference between 3-15 in this draft. It's about FIT and who you like. I don't like Leonard, at least not on the Kings with our current personnel. He's a square peg, for a round hole. Jimmer is a round peg to a round hole.

In fact, I think the Kings ought to target PG's with at least 2 out of their 3 if not all 3 of their picks. Because I see PG as being the best player with the skill-sets we're looking to add to the roster.
I don't disagree with you. If I was given the choice, I take Jimmer. But I wasn't speaking for myself. I've heard rumors that the Kings are interested in Leonard. Could be BS. He's coming in for a workout, and that may or may not be the deciding factor. Teams put up a lot of smokescreens this time of the year. From a personal point of view, I like leonard. He has a lot of the same qualities that Fredette has. Leadership, tough, extremely competitive. But I question whether he'll ever be a good outside shooter, and you never really know how good a shot he is until you get him in a real game. Anyone can look good when being guarded by air.

I just think Fredette is the perfect fit. He'll help spread the floor, and is the perfect outlet from a double in the post. I can see so many different things that the Kings could do with him on the floor, both as a scorer and a facilitator. So your preaching to the choir here.
 
I don't disagree with you. If I was given the choice, I take Jimmer. But I wasn't speaking for myself. I've heard rumors that the Kings are interested in Leonard. Could be BS. He's coming in for a workout, and that may or may not be the deciding factor. Teams put up a lot of smokescreens this time of the year. From a personal point of view, I like leonard. He has a lot of the same qualities that Fredette has. Leadership, tough, extremely competitive. But I question whether he'll ever be a good outside shooter, and you never really know how good a shot he is until you get him in a real game. Anyone can look good when being guarded by air.

I just think Fredette is the perfect fit. He'll help spread the floor, and is the perfect outlet from a double in the post. I can see so many different things that the Kings could do with him on the floor, both as a scorer and a facilitator. So your preaching to the choir here.
Sounds like we're definitely on the same page. I don't dislike Leonard as a prospect, I dislike him, actually HATE him as a prospect fit for the Kings. This draft is all about FIT. The talent is so evenly dispersed that the 'successful' picks are going to be the ones that fit the best with their teams. That's Jimmer and the Kings. A match made in heaven.

One of the qualities of Jimmer's that I think actually gets overlooked will be his vocal leadership. That's just not 'Reke. But it's definitely Jimmer. You see how he handles himself in front of the camera and you hear stories about how he is when no one's looking. The Kid could be the leader of our team as well as the best shooter that opens up the offense for Tyreke and Cousins to do their things.

I really wanted Jimmer as a value pick last year at 33 before he pulled out. Getting him at 7 this year would not only be ironic, but kinda telling to the kind of draft this year is.

Another thing that makes Jimmer the right fit for the Maloofs is their ability to MARKET him. Of all the prospects in this draft, very few could have the marketing potential of Jimmer from this year's draft. Minus the defense(and I'm in the boat that there are very few, quality defenders at the 1 and it's kinda like searching for the Holy Grail - it's not happening.) aspect of Jimmer's game, their's not much that doesn't fit with our roster.
 
so we draft jimmer let him sit a year then let beno walk next year. Then Jimmer becomes the 2nd pg?
Jimmer and Beno would probably get similar minutes off the bench next year depending on match ups and how they're playing. I think any combination between both of them, Tyreke and Thornton could work well together. Also pretty sure Beno has two years left on his deal and I expect he'll be here for both and probably walk after that.
 
Jimmer and Beno would probably get similar minutes off the bench next year depending on match ups and how they're playing. I think any combination between both of them, Tyreke and Thornton could work well together. Also pretty sure Beno has two years left on his deal and I expect he'll be here for both and probably walk after that.
Beno Udrih has two years left on his contract with team option after next season. If Fredette is on Kings I suspect he gets his share of playing time as a rook but less minutes than seasoned vet Beno. For sure Jimmer takes all of Pooh's minutes who would not likely return if Kings guard line is a solid Evans, Thornton, Udrih, Fredette - plus Garcia SG/SF.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
Beno Udrih has two years left on his contract with team option after next season. If Fredette is on Kings I suspect he gets his share of playing time as a rook but less minutes than seasoned vet Beno. For sure Jimmer takes all of Pooh's minutes who would not likely return if Kings guard line is a solid Evans, Thornton, Udrih, Fredette - plus Garcia SG/SF.
It all sounds good, but we don't have him yet, and we have no guarantee the Kings will take him. Heard a rumor today that Utah really likes both Fredette and Walker, but their leaning toward Fredette. Which makes sense with his going to BYU. They think the 3rd pick is too high, but they're susposedly talking to the Wiz about the 6th pick in the draft. Don't know what they would offer. I know Utah also has the 12 pick, but they'd have to throw in something else.
Great time of the year for rumors. I do think there will be more wheeling and dealing at and just before the draft. It may be the last chance teams have to get anything resolved for a while.

And Congrats to Dallas and company...
 
I don't disagree with you. If I was given the choice, I take Jimmer. But I wasn't speaking for myself. I've heard rumors that the Kings are interested in Leonard. Could be BS. He's coming in for a workout, and that may or may not be the deciding factor. Teams put up a lot of smokescreens this time of the year. From a personal point of view, I like leonard. He has a lot of the same qualities that Fredette has. Leadership, tough, extremely competitive. But I question whether he'll ever be a good outside shooter, and you never really know how good a shot he is until you get him in a real game. Anyone can look good when being guarded by air.

I just think Fredette is the perfect fit. He'll help spread the floor, and is the perfect outlet from a double in the post. I can see so many different things that the Kings could do with him on the floor, both as a scorer and a facilitator. So your preaching to the choir here.
Oh please don't draft Leonard! nonskilled blue collar players are not hard to find.