[Game] 17/82: Kings vs. Nets 24 NOV 2024, 6pm PT/9pm ET

Who scores more tonight?

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hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#301
#301
ShastaKingsFan said:
It would not have been a tie after 3, had they found a way to reduce how many 3's the opponent made.....and made a couple more themselves.

That is the point. They having a losing record right now and are getting killed from 3.
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Yeah but this is the same thing I've been arguing with @The_Jamal about all season long... "Find a way to reduce how many 3's the opponent makes and make a couple more threes yourself" is not something a coach can just tell his team on the sideline. It's sports talking head stuff. All you can do as a coach is teach process and motivate your guys to execute to the best of their ability. After that, the results are what they are.

And personally I don't think the process is where we've gone wrong right now. Keegan and Kevin are taking the shots we want them to take, they're just not going in. And our guys are working really hard on defense for the most part. A lot of their rotations have been good. They're still pressuring guards at half court, coming up with a lot of steals and deflections, and forcing the other team to swing the ball multiple times and use up the shot clock. When a guy is popping pull up threes in your face and making them (Cam Thomas had a few of those today) or there's a scramble play, an almost turnover, and then the other team hits a long off balance three with 0 seconds left on the shot clock, what can you do to stop that?

Maybe on 20% of the threes that Brooklyn made today I felt the Kings made a mistake on defense and stopped rotating after the initial switch and that left someone open. The other 80% of the time I was happy with the way they played Brooklyn's offensive sets, guys just made tough shots. In that situation I tip my hat to those guys and move on.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#302
#302
hrdboild said:
Yeah but this is the same thing I've been arguing with @The_Jamal about all season long... "Find a way to reduce how many 3's the opponent makes and make a couple more threes yourself" is not something a coach can just tell his team on the sideline. It's sports talking head stuff. All you can do as a coach is teach process and motivate your guys to execute to the best of their ability. After that, the results are what they are.

And personally I don't think the process is where we've gone wrong right now. Keegan and Kevin are taking the shots we want them to take, they're just not going in. And our guys are working really hard on defense for the most part. A lot of their rotations have been good. They're still pressuring guards at half court, coming up with a lot of steals and deflections, and forcing the other team to swing the ball multiple times and use up the shot clock. When a guy is popping pull up threes in your face and making them (Cam Thomas had a few of those today) or there's a scramble play, an almost turnover, and then the other team hits a long off balance three with 0 seconds left on the shot clock, what can you do to stop that?

Maybe on 20% of the threes that Brooklyn made today I felt the Kings made a mistake on defense and stopped rotating after the initial switch and that left someone open. The other 80% of the time I was happy with the way they played Brooklyn's offensive sets, guys just made tough shots. In that situation I tip my hat to those guys and move on.
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The complaint is that overall, it's not just your average "make or miss" stuff. Many of us see a scheme and approach issue with the defense.

You can't stop them all and teams will get hot, but you have to figure out a way to reduce the opponents %. Otherwise, you'll struggle to even have a .500 record
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#303
#303
ShastaKingsFan said:
The complaint is that overall, it's not just your average "make or miss" stuff. Many of us see a scheme and approach issue with the defense.

You can't stop them all and teams will get hot, but you have to figure out a way to reduce the opponents %. Otherwise, you'll struggle to even have a .500 record
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Just to throw a spanner in the works... the Cleveland Cavaliers are 16-1 right now and have the #9 ranked defense despite allowing their opponents to shoot 38.2% from three (which ranks them 29th in the league-- only Atlanta has been worse). For comparison, the Kings are 23rd in opponent 3pt% at 37.1% (though that will get worse after today).
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#304
#304
hrdboild said:
Just to throw a spanner in the works... the Cleveland Cavaliers are 16-1 right now and have the #9 ranked defense despite allowing their opponents to shoot 38.2% from three (which ranks them 29th in the league-- only Atlanta has been worse). For comparison, the Kings are 23rd in opponent 3pt% at 37.1% (though that will get worse after today).
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You bring up a good point, but the Cavs are partly able to get away with it because they shoot the best 3pt% in the league at 41.6%.

Kings are 5th worst in the league at 3pt % with 33.1%.

We have a lot of problems on this team and I would consider our 3pt defense to be one of them. The Cavs are able to overcome poor 3pt shooting because they have elite interior defenders who are both DPOY calibers with Mobley and Allen.

On the other hand, we have Sabonis and Keegan/DeMar defending our paint............... I think that is self explanatory despite what the stats say about our interior defense. (Keegan would probably be a solid, yet small and slightly undersized interior defender, but it's moot point anyways because we've got him chasing guards out in the perimeter)

Maybe our personnel shortcomings are forcing the Kings to put a more concentrated effort in packing the paint with help defenders and inside rotations which lead to open 3s. Blame should fall equally on Monte and Brown.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#306
#306
hrdboild said:
Just to throw a spanner in the works... the Cleveland Cavaliers are 16-1 right now and have the #9 ranked defense despite allowing their opponents to shoot 38.2% from three (which ranks them 29th in the league-- only Atlanta has been worse). For comparison, the Kings are 23rd in opponent 3pt% at 37.1% (though that will get worse after today).
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Ah, but they're also the best 3pt shooting team in basketball. And they're also 12th in the NBA in 3PA allowed, so a pretty sizeable gap from where we're at

CLE 3PM gaps this season:

+2-- Win
+0--Win
+3--Win
+3--Win
+11--Win
+4--Win
-3--Win
0--Win
+4--Win
+7--Win
-5--Win (vs the Nets, interestingly enough)
+1--Win
+2--Win
+1--Win
-7--Win
-12--Loss
+10--Win

+21 3PM on the season. Meanwhile we were legit like -60 3PM the last time I checked. Guessing it's probably significantly worse now.

Let's put it this way. Everything else equal, if we gave the Cavs our 3PM differential, are they still 16-1? Absolutely not. That's why it matters. They're still wining the 3PM gap in a majority of their games, despite allowing teams to hit at a huge clip vs them. Which allows their dominance in other facets to blow teams out.
 
T

Tizzy Flip

Starter
#307
#307
The_Jamal said:
Ah, but they're also the best 3pt shooting team in basketball. And they're also 12th in the NBA in 3PA allowed, so a pretty sizeable gap from where we're at

CLE 3PM gaps this season:

+2-- Win
+0--Win
+3--Win
+3--Win
+11--Win
+4--Win
-3--Win
0--Win
+4--Win
+7--Win
-5--Win (vs the Nets, interestingly enough)
+1--Win
+2--Win
+1--Win
-7--Win
-12--Loss
+10--Win

+21 3PM on the season. Meanwhile we were legit like -60 3PM the last time I checked. Guessing it's probably significantly worse now.

Let's put it this way. Everything else equal, if we gave the Cavs our 3PM differential, are they still 16-1? Absolutely not. That's why it matters. They're still wining the 3PM gap in a majority of their games, despite allowing teams to hit at a huge clip vs them. Which allows their dominance in other facets to blow teams out.
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It’s an interesting stat, but doesn’t have the context that Cavs are blowing out most teams and are able to let off the gas most games. For perspective, Donovan Mitchell averages the most mins at 31mpg. We have 4 guys that average 36+
 
iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

Hall of Famer
#308
#308
Tizzy Flip said:
It’s an interesting stat, but doesn’t have the context that Cavs are blowing out most teams and are able to let off the gas most games. For perspective, Donovan Mitchell averages the most mins at 31mpg. We have 4 guys that average 36+
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could be true to some extent, but because of the three ball “letting off the gas” doesn’t really happen until the last three minutes or so. Teams can make up 9-10 points in a flash.

The point you mention about the bench might end up being the biggest swing trait of the season. If Brown can’t trust his bench and find guys that can score/defend we are cooked. Maybe that poor end to last season after Monk went down was an even bigger deal than we thought? Maybe Monk is the difference between 10-7 and 8-9.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#309
#309
hrdboild said:
Just to throw a spanner in the works... the Cleveland Cavaliers are 16-1 right now and have the #9 ranked defense despite allowing their opponents to shoot 38.2% from three (which ranks them 29th in the league-- only Atlanta has been worse). For comparison, the Kings are 23rd in opponent 3pt% at 37.1% (though that will get worse after today).
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So lets assume that they can't reduce the opponent's %. The Kings will then have to reduce how many attempts they get, in order to reduce how many they make.

It would be similar to if you are getting hammered at the free throw line every game, which we've seen before. It's just that a 3 point shot gap, adds up a lot faster
 
Kingz19

Kingz19

Hall of Famer
#310
#310
MelTurpin said:
https://twitter.com/statuses/1860907173397831948

Huerter being left wide open now
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I’ve noticed that. He’s recently started getting more good looks than usual and he’s just been a brick machine.

His reputation alone to draw off ball attention and create space was pretty much the last of the reasons to start him over Keon

If he has lost that respect from the league then it’s time to start Keon.

It also might be Jordie knowing the more open Huerter is, the more in his own head he gets
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#312
#312
iowamcnabb said:
the nets bench had 27 field goal attempts from the bench. We had 9. We essentially have no scorers in the bench unjt. not having Monk might have hurt us more than missing Deebo/Sabonis for a couple games
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Yep and it doesn't help that Keegan and Huerter, the guys who are supposed to be our best 3pt shooters, are actually our worst 3pt shooters.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#315
#315
Srzly said:
We need a better bench. Same issue as last season. That first playoff season we had bench players that could step up. When Monk is out we have no one serviceable except Keon (and I think Keon should be starting).

I’d take our top 6 against most teams in this league if fatigue wasn’t a thing but we need more help off the bench.
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Terence Davis has been missed, more than some wanted to give him credit for
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#316
#316
losing to the likes of Atlanta and Brooklyn at home? what's going to happen when they start playing top 5 playoff teams? could be in for a rude awakening here as the schedule gets tougher. I don't know that Monk coming back will fix a broken foundation
 
N

New Era

Starter
#317
#317
kingsboi said:
losing to the likes of Atlanta and Brooklyn at home? what's going to happen when they start playing top 5 playoff teams? could be in for a rude awakening here as the schedule gets tougher. I don't know that Monk coming back will fix a broken foundation
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I think we're going to see exactly what will happen tonight. I don't really have any hope the Kings will be competitive tonight.
 
S

Srzly

G-League
#318
#318
ESP47 said:
Huerter and Keegan accept the challenge.
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I guess my point is that for some reason 3 of our best shooters are off right now.

However, we are still competitive most nights. We also missed DDR, Sabonis, and are still missing Monk. Sabonis in his last 6 games has turned it over 31 times.

We are nowhere near playing our best basketball and have been playing with almost no bench contributions (except Keon) and are still only one game behind .500.

I still have faith we will turn it around... The shooting, the winning, all of it.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#325
#325
The 3PT shooting from the supporting cast is just…puzzling. I don’t get the impression that the shots they are taking this year are much more difficult than what they got in previous years yet almost all of these guys (outside of Ellis and McLaughlin) are shooting considerably worse than their career averages…


Murray
2024-25: .299 3P% on 5.6 3PA per 36 min
Career: .384 3P% on 7.3 3PA per 36 min

Huerter
2024-25: .290 3P% on 7.7 3PA per 36 min
Career: .382 3P% on 7.1 3PA per 36 min

Lyles
2024-25: .333 3P% on 6.8 3PA per 36 min
Career: .347 3P% on 5.5 3PA per 36 min

Monk
2024-25: .279 3P% on 6.2 3PA per 36 min
Career: .355 3P% on 8.2 3PA per 36 min

McDermott
2024-25: .324 3P% on 9.5 3PA per 36 min
Career: .410 3P% on 6.2 3PA per 36 min


You have to believe that these guys will bounce back at some point this season, but boy it’s rough when essentially the entire supporting cast is cold all at the same time. Thank God we’re 2nd in the league in 2P% (which is not surprising considering Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis are lethal from that range). If our supporting cast was just hitting their 3s at their career average, our 11th Offensive Rating would probably jump up to being one of the best in the league. In fact, if all of those guys were shooting the 3 at their career average, we’d be 4th in PPG (we’re currently 12th), and we’d go from having a +1.6 point differential to a +5.8 point differential (which would be 7th in the league).

Now having said all of that, this doesn’t excuse our 3PT defense (26th in 3P%, 28th in 3PA, and 30th in Corner 3PA), but it does at least show how good of a team we could be if our supporting cast could just hit a 3. But coming back to the 3PT defense…I’m starting to notice that we overly help and double when it doesn’t seem to be necessary. For instance, I remember when Ellis was defending someone who was trying to drive in the lane and Ellis was doing a good job cutting off penetration and sticking with him. Huerter unnecessarily came over to double, help, attempt to strip the ball, etc. and the player simply said “thank you for the outlet” and passed it to Huerter’s man who then proceed to shoot an open 3 and make it.

Why did we just do that? We have one of our best defenders defending. Trust him to contain his man and only help if he really is beat by his man. You’re essentially collapsing your own defense when you don’t even have to yet. It’s no wonder why teams get so many good looks from 3 on us.

I believe this is actually the defensive philosphy as well since Huerter was talking about our defense awhile back and said something to the effect that their primary focus is to close down the paint. I think @The_Jamal might have the full quote.


So what can we do today?
  1. I don’t know how to fix our supporting casts shooting other than to tell them to keep shooting and get through this slump. I don’t think their looks are all of a sudden much more difficult than what they have seen for their career so I have to believe they will get back to being the shooters they have proved to be throughout their careers
  2. Revisit the defensive philosophy and stop over helping and over doubling. Trust your defenders and only rotate if they get beat (don’t rotate early because you’re anticipating them getting beat)
  3. Somewhat related to #2, start Keon Ellis over Kevin Huerter. If we’re going to stop over helping and over doubling, it’s important to have good defenders on the floor that can prevent penetration or recover effectively. Swapping Huerter for Ellis is a massive defensive upgrade for us and gives us 3 perimeter defenders who are really good at keeping their man in front of them (Fox, Ellis, & Murray) and even Sabonis is pretty good at keeping perimeter players in front of him for his size.
  4. Give Huerter a higher usage, scoring bench role. Our bench scoring has been less than ideal thus far. Having both Monk and Huerter as scoring options off the bench would be a step in the right direction (while also hiding their defensive deficiencies by having them matchup against opposing teams 2nd units).

Our record is frustrating and disappointing to say the least, but you can see how effective this team could be with a few tweaks (and our supporting cast returning to their career averages). The main issue is how do we convince the coaching staff to make those tweaks I mentioned above (#2-#4)?


Long term, we’ll need to move on from Murray at PF. Whether that’s…
  • Starting Murray at SG on defense/DeRozan at SG on offense and bring in a bigger 3&D PF
  • Moving on from DeRozan (allowing Murray to start at SF and allowing us to bring in a bigger 3&D PF
  • Moving on from Murray (allowing us to bring in a bigger 3&D PF)
The size/length concerns was a known issue going into this season and nothing has changed since then. If we eventually want to become a contender, we can’t roll out an undersized frontcourt of DeRozan, Murray, and Sabonis.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#326
#326
twslam07 said:
The 3PT shooting from the supporting cast is just…puzzling. I don’t get the impression that the shots they are taking this year are much more difficult than what they got in previous years yet almost all of these guys (outside of Ellis and McLaughlin) are shooting considerably worse than their career averages…


Murray
2024-25: .299 3P% on 5.6 3PA per 36 min
Career: .384 3P% on 7.3 3PA per 36 min

Huerter
2024-25: .290 3P% on 7.7 3PA per 36 min
Career: .382 3P% on 7.1 3PA per 36 min

Lyles
2024-25: .333 3P% on 6.8 3PA per 36 min
Career: .347 3P% on 5.5 3PA per 36 min

Monk
2024-25: .279 3P% on 6.2 3PA per 36 min
Career: .355 3P% on 8.2 3PA per 36 min

McDermott
2024-25: .324 3P% on 9.5 3PA per 36 min
Career: .410 3P% on 6.2 3PA per 36 min


You have to believe that these guys will bounce back at some point this season, but boy it’s rough when essentially the entire supporting cast is cold all at the same time. Thank God we’re 2nd in the league in 2P% (which is not surprising considering Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis are lethal from that range). If our supporting cast was just hitting their 3s at their career average, our 11th Offensive Rating would probably jump up to being one of the best in the league. In fact, if all of those guys were shooting the 3 at their career average, we’d be 4th in PPG (we’re currently 12th), and we’d go from having a +1.6 point differential to a +5.8 point differential (which would be 7th in the league).

Now having said all of that, this doesn’t excuse our 3PT defense (26th in 3P%, 28th in 3PA, and 30th in Corner 3PA), but it does at least show how good of a team we could be if our supporting cast could just hit a 3. But coming back to the 3PT defense…I’m starting to notice that we overly help and double when it doesn’t seem to be necessary. For instance, I remember when Ellis was defending someone who was trying to drive in the lane and Ellis was doing a good job cutting off penetration and sticking with him. Huerter unnecessarily came over to double, help, attempt to strip the ball, etc. and the player simply said “thank you for the outlet” and passed it to Huerter’s man who then proceed to shoot an open 3 and make it.

Why did we just do that? We have one of our best defenders defending. Trust him to contain his man and only help if he really is beat by his man. You’re essentially collapsing your own defense when you don’t even have to yet. It’s no wonder why teams get so many good looks from 3 on us.

I believe this is actually the defensive philosphy as well since Huerter was talking about our defense awhile back and said something to the effect that their primary focus is to close down the paint. I think @The_Jamal might have the full quote.


So what can we do today?
  1. I don’t know how to fix our supporting casts shooting other than to tell them to keep shooting and get through this slump. I don’t think their looks are all of a sudden much more difficult than what they have seen for their career so I have to believe they will get back to being the shooters they have proved to be throughout their careers
  2. Revisit the defensive philosophy and stop over helping and over doubling. Trust your defenders and only rotate if they get beat (don’t rotate early because you’re anticipating them getting beat)
  3. Somewhat related to #2, start Keon Ellis over Kevin Huerter. If we’re going to stop over helping and over doubling, it’s important to have good defenders on the floor that can prevent penetration or recover effectively. Swapping Huerter for Ellis is a massive defensive upgrade for us and gives us 3 perimeter defenders who are really good at keeping their man in front of them (Fox, Ellis, & Murray) and even Sabonis is pretty good at keeping perimeter players in front of him for his size.
  4. Give Huerter a higher usage, scoring bench role. Our bench scoring has been less than ideal thus far. Having both Monk and Huerter as scoring options off the bench would be a step in the right direction (while also hiding their defensive deficiencies by having them matchup against opposing teams 2nd units).

Our record is frustrating and disappointing to say the least, but you can see how effective this team could be with a few tweaks (and our supporting cast returning to their career averages). The main issue is how do we convince the coaching staff to make those tweaks I mentioned above (#2-#4)?


Long term, we’ll need to move on from Murray at PF. Whether that’s…
  • Starting Murray at SG on defense/DeRozan at SG on offense and bring in a bigger 3&D PF
  • Moving on from DeRozan (allowing Murray to start at SF and allowing us to bring in a bigger 3&D PF
  • Moving on from Murray (allowing us to bring in a bigger 3&D PF)
The size/length concerns was a known issue going into this season and nothing has changed since then. If we eventually want to become a contender, we can’t roll out an undersized frontcourt of DeRozan, Murray, and Sabonis.
Click to expand...
The looks aren't more difficult. We're getting like 3% less wide open 3's (6+feet of space) than we were last year. So at 35 3PA/game, basically 1 less wide open 3 a game. But we're making those attempts at basically the same rate.

The decline has been open 3's (4-6 feet of space). We're down nearly 8% from last season, despite getting about the same rate of that shot type.

Yeah, the short-term fix is just start Keon, play him 30+ MPG and see what that can fix. Right now, he's our best defender and best shooter. This team desperately needs a spark and to me, getting the all-defensive team candidate on the floor for maximum minutes is a good place to start. Only helps our starting unit gel better and only helps our bench get stronger by putting the better offensive player (Huerter) on a very anemic offensive bench while Monk is hurt.
 
ShastaKingsFan

ShastaKingsFan

All-Star
#329
#329
twslam07 said:
Now having said all of that, this doesn’t excuse our 3PT defense (26th in 3P%, 28th in 3PA, and 30th in Corner 3PA), but it does at least show how good of a team we could be if our supporting cast could just hit a 3. But coming back to the 3PT defense…I’m starting to notice that we overly help and double when it doesn’t seem to be necessary. For instance, I remember when Ellis was defending someone who was trying to drive in the lane and Ellis was doing a good job cutting off penetration and sticking with him. Huerter unnecessarily came over to double, help, attempt to strip the ball, etc. and the player simply said “thank you for the outlet” and passed it to Huerter’s man who then proceed to shoot an open 3 and make it.

Why did we just do that? We have one of our best defenders defending. Trust him to contain his man and only help if he really is beat by his man. You’re essentially collapsing your own defense when you don’t even have to yet. It’s no wonder why teams get so many good looks from 3 on us.
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They do this every single game and it makes no sense. 4 or 5 of our players collapse into the paint and leave the 3 point line open.....and it loses them game after game.

I have to blame the coaching staff. Whoever is really in charge of the defense, needs to stop this and have the team play strict man to man defense. If they get beat on 2 point shots, then so be it,....but you have to try something else at this point. Otherwise they will be so far behind, that a really good stretch run will be required just to make the play-in
 
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