[Game] 17/82: Kings vs. Nets 24 NOV 2024, 6pm PT/9pm ET

[SacTownKid]

Let me put it this way, if all you knew was the guys on this roster and that we are currently ranked 13th in defensive rating (I guess we've moved up a spot since the last time I checked) wouldn't you say that the scheme seems to be working?

As for the Coach being an idiot or incapable of playing to his personnel... in the 3 years of Mike Brown this team has ranked 25th, 14th, and now 13th (so far) in defensive rating after spending the previous 16 years ranked no higher than 20. I don't like the open 3's either, but the numbers suggest our 3pt defense hasn't been the absolute disaster that we think it is.

In a way it is if for nothing more than the difference in PPP and how it shakes a defense to the core when teams start bombing on you. Giving open 3's and closing the middle is a theoretical defense based on giving up lower percentage shots rather than paint shots. It's a little antiquated and I think it largely employed to cover up for Domas as a rim protector. Domas can be a really good defender but he is going to have to defend with his feet, not his size. To me that means pressing up and switching, much like Horford does. If the Kings offense is top 5, top 14 should be pretty good. That said, with the amount of talent grouped in the West now, that bar of year 2 as potentially being a top 3-5 team getting into that Nuggets range defensively might not be reality any longer. That bar might be higher.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Normally it’s good to have another game to wash the taste out but against THE most physical defense or one of them in the league?

 

[SacTownKid]

A lot of bad substitution decisions tonight. Just when the team got some momentum and went ahead in fourth, suddenly 3 substitutions that killed that momentum.

Yeah, Brown might have to go back to a tighter rotation again. Colby did OK, but some of those odd moments between these guys should have been no surprise.

 

[hrdboild]

-10 3PM

Missed 11 FT's

Team deserves to lose. Just beating themselves at this point

This is such a tired take. We were already -8 on 3PM when the game was tied at 88 at the end of the 3rd quarter. We only scored 15 points in the 4th quarter and that includes missing 7 3pt jumpers. At some point we need to stop forcing up shots and just find a reliable way to put points on the board.

I'm with you on the missed FT's though. Those are brutal -- especially when those 11 points we could have gotten at the line would have been enough to make up the difference tonight and we've actually been really good on average at making those this season.

 

[The_Jamal]

Let me put it this way, if all you knew was the guys on this roster and that we are currently ranked 13th in defensive rating (I guess we've moved up a spot since the last time I checked) wouldn't you say that the scheme seems to be working?

As for the Coach being an idiot or incapable of playing to his personnel... in the 3 years of Mike Brown this team has ranked 25th, 14th, and now 13th (so far) in defensive rating after spending the previous 16 years ranked no higher than 20. I don't like the open 3's either, but the numbers suggest our 3pt defense hasn't been the absolute disaster that we think it is.

Again, we're playing outstanding basketball inside the 3pt arc. On both ends. But us allowing an enormous number of 3's being hit at a high clip (2nd to last in the league, might fall to last after this game), allows for teams we outplay overall stay in a game and beat us. We played better than the Nets tonight; we lost the 3pt battle by ****ing 30 points and missed 11 FT's. This was us beating ourselves... again. As has been the case for a majority of the season.

We're a team that relies on the 2 and allows the other team to rely on the 3. Math ain't mathin.

 

[iowamcnabb]

It was obvious at that time. No need to wait for hindsight if you had foresight.

I get it but in the other hand you were going to need Fox and Keegan at the end there. With seven minutes to go that doesn’t leave much time. Maybe they could have pushed it back another minute or so but I dunno. We should have been able to trust Deebo to carry us through that. Monk will really help us with those luls and I’m hoping Carter will too.


this team could rip off 4 wins in a row in the next week or two and all would be forgiven but we aren’t putting together complete games

 

[The_Jamal]

This is such a tired take. We were already -8 on 3PM when the game was tied at 88 at the end of the 3rd quarter. We only scored 15 points in the 4th quarter and that includes missing 7 3pt jumpers. At some point we need to stop forcing up shots and just find a reliable way to put points on the board.

I'm with you on the missed FT's though. Those are brutal -- especially when those 11 points we could have gotten at the line would have been enough to make up the difference tonight and we've actually been really good on average at making those this season.

I have no interest in having this conversation again, but we took 25 3PA tonight. That's legitimately nothing in the modern NBA, so you claiming we're "chucking" is just an equally tiring argument. I've proven it's just not true over and over, but you don't have interest in hearing it. Which is fine, but don't tell me I'm the one in the wrong here.

I've also VERY clearly explained this needs to be improved on both ends. I guess I'll repeat this again, but I'm not suggesting we go full Boston and chuck. I'm suggesting their needs to be an adjustment on the defensive end to stop allowing teams to chuck against us and make a bunch of 3's against us.

And yeah, being -8 3PM and tied is a horrible look for the Nets. That shows we were outplaying this team. Us not caring about it allowed an inferior team go beat us. Fix the damn gap and guess what? We're going to start winning ball games.

 

[coolhandluke]

I get it but in the other hand you were going to need Fox and Keegan at the end there. With seven minutes to go that doesn’t leave much time. Maybe they could have pushed it back another minute or so but I dunno. We should have been able to trust Deebo to carry us through that.

You play the dominant hand until the opponents adjust or your hand weakens. When you have an advantage, you need to press it. It's a timed game and clock is running out.

 

[coolhandluke]

We played better than the Nets tonight.

The scoreboard says otherwise.

 

[ESP47]

This team is great at finding ways to lose.

Nets barely played their starters starter minutes and they still smacked us despite our starters playing huge minutes again.

 

[reptilexcq2]

Glad I didn't watch the game. There is something lacking in this team.

 

[iowamcnabb]

This team is great at finding ways to lose.

Nets barely played their starters starter minutes and they still smacked us despite our starters playing huge minutes again.

the nets bench had 27 field goal attempts from the bench. We had 9. We essentially have no scorers in the bench unjt. not having Monk might have hurt us more than missing Deebo/Sabonis for a couple games

 

[coolhandluke]

People are talking about the guys who were not available to play? There's no knight in white armor that's coming. Have to play the hand that you have smartly.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Trade Huerter and a pick for a 3 and d guy (I’m not anti Huerter nor do I blame him for our record he is just the most logical given the contract). Get Monk back healthy. Get Carter healthy. Start Ellis. Change defensive philosophy to run guys off the line, force them to take tough shots at the rim. Live with the results and re-evaluate in the off season.

 

[New Era]

Brown absolutely needs to swap Huerter out for Ellis. It’s just such an obvious move and it would take the pressure off Kevin. He could juts come off the bench and try to get it going against 2nd units.

 

[iowamcnabb]

The only thing one can hope is that the adjustment in the 2nd half defensively and playing up into the ball handler is something they maybe look to do earlier in games. Like before they get down big. The Kings gave up open 3's still, but they at least made the Nets move. DeRozan just went flat out ice cold at the worst possible time.

and tire out the legs of the opponent early and make them adjust instead of them getting confidence and riding the high into the second half.

 

[megapoxy]

Also to add that our defensive rating is a bit good because in most of the cases we played against not so good teams. Even the Clippers that beat us twice so far is not such a high scoring team

https://twitter.com/statuses/1860906669565444342

 

[luckytkp]

Murray and Huerter just forgot how to shoot from 3 in November. If they shot at minimum 32% or so kings might have won half the games that they loss.

Huerter - 25%
Murray - 29%

It’s not a November issue. Their shooting have been on downtrend since playoff 2 years ago.

 

[iowamcnabb]

It’s not a November issue. Their shooting have been on downtrend since playoff 2 years ago.

this has been discussed but Keegan has 3 straight Novembers shooting 26, 28 and 29 percent from 3 respectively. They are the only months in his entire career they he has shot below 30 percent from three. Most of the other months he is closer to 40 percent. So in his case, it does appear to be a November thing

 

[hrdboild]

I have no interest in having this conversation again, but we took 25 3PA tonight. That's legitimately nothing in the modern NBA, so you claiming we're "chucking" is just an equally tiring argument. I've proven it's just not true over and over, but you don't have interest in hearing it. Which is fine, but don't tell me I'm the one in the wrong here.

If we'd won being -8 on 3PM (which is where we were at the end of 3 quarters when the score was tied) what would you have said then? Every time we lose a game there's going to be a 3PM deficit because we're a terrible 3pt shooting team right now. And yet we've won or nearly won more than half of our games (8-9 with 2 OT losses, a 2pt loss, and a 1pt loss). Hence I don't think the 3pt shooting gap is proof of anything.

Let me try to point out why by use of an example:

Kevin Huerter is a 37.8% 3pt shooter for his career. Noah Clowney is a 34.9% 3pt shooter for his career. Huerter went 1 for 5 on threes tonight and Clowney went 5 for 8. That's -4 3PM of the -10 overall gap accounted for just from those two players alone. The guy who is an above average shooter for his career was -4 against the guy who is a mediocre shooter. If we follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, we should have Huerter shooting 10 threes a game right? We need more attempts from our better shooters to close the gap. Surely then the data would even out and we'd pull ahead right? But what if he goes 1 for 9 though?

When we're down by 4 points in the last minute of the game (as we were tonight) all that matters to me is that we put points on the board each trip down the floor. I don't care if they're 2's or 3's because at that point in the game where you need a score to give yourself a chance to win, coming up empty is far far worse than settling for 2. A missed 3 there means you have no chance to win. If we were getting blown out by 20 every game I would agree with you -- let's let it fly and see what happens. But that isn't what has happened this season. Most of our loses so far this season have been decided by one or two baskets in the final minute. When it's winning time in the final 2 minutes, we're at our best offensively this season when we attack the paint. When we settle for long jumpers we lose, almost without fail. That's my point. These guys already got the game to the final 2 minutes only down by 2 scores. Give your two clutch scorers the ball and let them put it in the basket.

Two things need to happen before this team can win the 3PM gap like you want them to. Monk needs to get healthy and the trio of Monk, Murray and Huerter all need to start shooting the ball better than 29% from three. Failing that, shooting the 3-ball more is only going to make things worse for us.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Ok, I’m going to do the Harrison Barnes “dont shave the beard” strike only I’m not going to watch another Kings game or hop in the game thread after tonight until the Kings win two games in a row. Hope to see y’all very very soon!

 

[sactowndog]

Also to add that our defensive rating is a bit good because in most of the cases we played against not so good teams. Even the Clippers that beat us twice so far is not such a high scoring team

https://twitter.com/statuses/1860906669565444342

not to mention depending on who doesn’t make the in season tourney it could get tougher still

 

[The_Jamal]

If we'd won being -8 on 3PM (which is where we were at the end of 3 quarters when the score was tied) what would you have said then? Every time we lose a game there's going to be a 3PM deficit because we're a terrible 3pt shooting team right now. And yet we've won or nearly won more than half of our games (8-9 with 2 OT losses, a 2pt loss, and a 1pt loss). Hence I don't think the 3pt shooting gap is proof of anything.

Let me try to point out why by use of an example:

Kevin Huerter is a 37.8% 3pt shooter for his career. Noah Clowney is a 34.9% 3pt shooter for his career. Huerter went 1 for 5 on threes tonight and Clowney went 5 for 8. That's -4 3PM of the -10 overall gap accounted for just from those two players alone. The guy who is an above average shooter for his career was -4 against the guy who is a mediocre shooter. If we follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, we should have Huerter shooting 10 threes a game right? We need more attempts from our better shooters to close the gap. Surely then the data would even out and we'd pull ahead right? But what if he goes 1 for 9 though?

When we're down by 4 points in the last minute of the game (as we were tonight) all that matters to me is that we put points on the board each trip down the floor. I don't care if they're 2's or 3's because at that point in the game where you need a score to give yourself a chance to win, coming up empty is far far worse than settling for 2. A missed 3 there means you have no chance to win. If we were getting blown out by 20 every game I would agree with you -- let's let it fly and see what happens. But that isn't what has happened this season. Most of our loses so far this season have been decided by one or two baskets in the final minute. When it's winning time in the final 2 minutes, we're at our best offensively this season when we attack the paint. When we settle for long jumpers we lose, almost without fail. That's my point. These guys already got the game to the final 2 minutes only down by 2 scores. Give your two clutch scorers the ball and let them put it in the basket.

Two things need to happen before this team can win the 3PM gap like you want them to. Monk needs to get healthy and the trio of Monk, Murray and Huerter all need to start shooting the ball better than 29% from three. Failing that, shooting the 3-ball more is only going to make things worse for us.

Brotherman, I'm not sure how many times I need to say this.

I'm not suggesting we chuck more 3's (although we should not abandon it either). I'm pointing out there's 2 massively glaring holes on this roster right now; we suck at shooting and we massively suck at defending 3's which for some reason our defensive scheme allows. BKN shot 48% from 3 tonight... we hold them to a still very bad 40%? We win by 4. I'm not saying we should have chucked 20 more 3's to close the 3PM gap. But prevent them from making 3 more 3's tonight and we win the game.

25 3PA is still too low, but we actually shot ok for once. But the absolute glaring issue is getting these teams working us from 3 under control. Needs to be a two-prong approach here. Close the gap by making more 3's and allowing less 3's on the other end.

 

[Elektrik]

No bench
Missed free throws
Can’t shoot the three
Can’t guard the three.
Can’t win at home
Turnovers

there’s lots wrong with this team

 

[iowamcnabb]

Also to add that our defensive rating is a bit good because in most of the cases we played against not so good teams. Even the Clippers that beat us twice so far is not such a high scoring team

https://twitter.com/statuses/1860906669565444342

honestly the schedule doesn’t matter much to me. If we already got the “easy” schedule out of the way and we still have 65 games left that tells you all we need to know. We just need to start playing well from beginning to end most nights or we are screwed. Our shooters need to shoot and make, Domas needs to stop being Sabonhead, our bench needs to get help and get healthy and we need to change our defensive philosophy. We are too talented and capable to be under 500

 

[Sam0ah]

I see a lot of people think its all about Heurter for Keon. I think its much deeper than that. Whatever scheme on offense and defense just isn't vibing. We may need a new coach, or Brown better get it going soon with the changes. It wouldn't hurt if Monte did something as well. Right now it just feels like square peg into round circle over and over.....

 

[The_Jamal]

I see a lot of people think its all about Heurter for Keon. I think its much deeper than that. Whatever scheme on offense and defense just isn't vibing. We may need a new coach, or Brown better get it going soon with the changes. It wouldn't hurt if Monte did something as well. Right now it just feels like square peg into round circle over and over.....

Possibly, but none of this is actionable in the short-term.

The easiest fix is play our best defender and probably our best shooter (right now anyway) 30+ MPG. I do like us getting Colby in the game over McDermott too; at least there's a chance he might be able to defend a bit. McBuckets is just cooked.

 

[hrdboild]

Brotherman, I'm not sure how many times I need to say this.

I'm not suggesting we chuck more 3's (although we should not abandon it either). I'm pointing out there's 2 massively glaring holes on this roster right now; we suck at shooting and we massively suck at defending 3's which for some reason our defensive scheme allows. BKN shot 48% from 3 tonight... we hold them to a still very bad 40%? We win by 4. I'm not saying we should have chucked 20 more 3's to close the 3PM gap. But prevent them from making 3 more 3's tonight and we win the game.

25 3PA is still too low, but we actually shot ok for once. But the absolute glaring issue is getting these teams working us from 3 under control. Needs to be a two-prong approach here. Close the gap by making more 3's and allowing less 3's on the other end.

I just think you're over-generalizing. This was a tie game after 3 quarters right? In the fourth quarter the Kings went 0 for 7 on their 3PA, managed to score only 15 points, and lost by 5. What should the Kings have done differently on offense in that 4th quarter in your opinion?

Meanwhile on the other end of the floor, guys who don't shoot very well on average (like Noah Clowney) have been lighting us up all season long from deep. I can't confidently say that our shooters bricking everything in sight or guys like Clowney putting up video game shooting stats against the Kings and no one else are the result of anything this team is doing wrong. In both cases the results so far are such outliers that it feels more like dumb luck to me.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I just think you're over-generalizing. This was a tie game after 3 quarters right? In the fourth quarter the Kings went 0 for 7 on their 3PA, managed to score only 15 points, and lost by 5. What should the Kings have done differently on offense in that 4th quarter in your opinion?

Meanwhile on the other end of the floor, guys who don't shoot very well on average (like Noah Clowney) have been lighting us up all season long from deep. I can't confidently say that our shooters bricking everything in sight or guys like Clowney putting up video game shooting stats against the Kings and no one else are the result of anything this team is doing wrong. In both cases the results so far are such outliers that it feels more like dumb luck to me.

It would not have been a tie after 3, had they found a way to reduce how many 3's the opponent made.....and made a couple more themselves.

That is the point. They having a losing record right now and are getting killed from 3.

 

[luckytkp]

I see a lot of people think its all about Heurter for Keon. I think its much deeper than that. Whatever scheme on offense and defense just isn't vibing. We may need a new coach, or Brown better get it going soon with the changes. It wouldn't hurt if Monte did something as well. Right now it just feels like square peg into round circle over and over.....

Monte definitely is big factor of how imbalance this roster is. We have too many guards and no forward.