An at-length discussion about... um, length (split from the [Game] thread)

[sactowndog]

...yes the data made up of physical measurements which was all available on draft day and all says exactly nothing other than how high off the ground a player can reach with his fingertips while standing with his toes on the ground. Riveting.

For all you know I may have the standing reach of a... very tall person ... but if I don't know how to close out on a shooter without fouling, where my help defense is so I can cheat to one side or the other to force them baseline or middle, and how to identify a pump fake and recover without taking myself out of the play then me and my taradactyl wingspan won't get out of the G League. It's hard for me to take your use of this data seriously when you completely ignore the mental aspect of defense which is arguably more significant than any physical attribute.

dude fine post your opinion why you think he will be good. Or better let’s review what you said about Davion on draft day.

and I’m not ignoring the mental aspect of defense. From any draft class about 20 players stay in. Have you considered at that level it takes both the mental and physical tools to join such elite company.

 

[sactowndog]

I sorta don't think a hand in a shooters face really matters all that much anymore with how freaking good everyone is now. I feel like it's more taking away their space, forcing them to rush, getting a quick close out matters more to affecting a players shot than a wacky inflatable tube man arms in a shooters vision. There's an obvious "minimum" wingspan/length threshold, but you also need those other things too. It's what's made Keon pop on defense thus far; he's incredible at staying on a defenders hip, taking away space, flipping his hips on a dime, getting his hands involved for a strip, being insanely quick on the contest.

Steph is obviously a 1/1 shooter, but when he finds his rhythm, it doesn't matter if Wemby is contesting his shot. You only beat Steph by forcing him out of his routine.

again I’m not saying you don’t need to do the other things. But with 30 teams drawing players from around the globe to be elite you have to be incredible at staying on a defenders hip, taking away space, flipping his hips on a dime, getting his hands involved for a strip, being insanely quick on the contest and…… be long in both directions.

 

[sactowndog]

I sorta don't think a hand in a shooters face really matters all that much anymore with how freaking good everyone is now. I feel like it's more taking away their space, forcing them to rush, getting a quick close out matters more to affecting a players shot than a wacky inflatable tube man arms in a shooters vision. There's an obvious "minimum" wingspan/length threshold, but you also need those other things too. It's what's made Keon pop on defense thus far; he's incredible at staying on a defenders hip, taking away space, flipping his hips on a dime, getting his hands involved for a strip, being insanely quick on the contest.

Steph is obviously a 1/1 shooter, but when he finds his rhythm, it doesn't matter if Wemby is contesting his shot. You only beat Steph by forcing him out of his routine.

by the way. If you have to use Steph to validate your point you are on shaky ground.

also you might want to look at how well OKC plays defense as a team filled with guys who have “tube like” arms. Or better note the two best defenders on the Kings currently have “tube like” arms.

lastly look at Davion and HB. Both of them had all the things you mentioned except tube like arms. So who are your counter factuals? I think the best one you can point to is Dillon Brooks….

 

[Capt. Factorial]

At @Capt. Factorial nice title

Credit where credit is due: that was not me, it was Slim.

 

[The_Jamal]

by the way. If you have to use Steph to validate your point you are on shaky ground.

also you might want to look at how well OKC plays defense as a team filled with guys who have “tube like” arms. Or better note the two best defenders on the Kings currently have “tube like” arms.

It's an example. It's not me using him to validate my point. Pick any shooter you want, it's the same idea. Everyone knows what im talking about when Steph finds his rhythm, so that's what I went with. Fine, how about when Kevin Huerter gets hot? Better?

So OKC plays great defense because of their long arms? Or do they have great defenders with great physical attributes? What's Alex Caruso's wingspan again?

 

[The_Jamal]

dude fine post your opinion why you think he will be good. Or better let’s review what you said about Davion on draft day.

and I’m not ignoring the mental aspect of defense. From any draft class about 20 players stay in. Have you considered at that level it takes both the mental and physical tools to join such elite company.

Literally everyone already has. You're ignoring it because you're obsessed with standing reach for some reason, after you couldn't call his wingspan bad.

Why he's going to be good:
-He's one of the best athletes to come out of the draft in a long time. Blew up the combine numbers
-Has a tremendous +7 wingspan and a big physical frame
-Has tremendous college tape on the defensive end. Dude has the "it" factor and takes pride playing hard on defense
-Took a massive leap as a shooter and overall offensive scorer.
-Im pretty sure lead the country in rebounding among guards. '

Why you think he'll be bad:
-His standing reach

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who's got the better argument here.

 

[sactowndog]

Literally everyone already has. You're ignoring it because you're obsessed with standing reach for some reason, after you couldn't call his wingspan bad.

Why he's going to be good:
-He's one of the best athletes to come out of the draft in a long time. Blew up the combine numbers
-Has a tremendous +7 wingspan and a big physical frame
-Has tremendous college tape on the defensive end. Dude has the "it" factor and takes pride playing hard on defense
-Took a massive leap as a shooter and overall offensive scorer.
-Im pretty sure lead the country in rebounding among guards. '

Why you think he'll be bad:
-His standing reach

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who's got the better argument here.

Seems we are back where we started. We shall see. You asked for an honest answer and I gave you one. And I did not say he would be bad. I said I don’t think he will be an elite multi-positional defender like Keon is.

 

[SacTownKid]

by the way. If you have to use Steph to validate your point you are on shaky ground.

also you might want to look at how well OKC plays defense as a team filled with guys who have “tube like” arms. Or better note the two best defenders on the Kings currently have “tube like” arms.

lastly look at Davion and HB. Both of them had all the things you mentioned except tube like arms. So who are your counter factuals? I think the best one you can point to is Dillon Brooks….

Who's arguably the best perimeter defender on the Thunder again?

 

[Tetsujin]

Draymond Green had a worse standing reach than Thomas Robinson and yet one guy’s flipping burgers while the other one was regarded as one of the best/most versatile defenders in the league in his prime.

 

[sactowndog]

Draymond Green had a worse standing reach than Thomas Robinson and yet one guy’s flipping burgers while the other one was regarded as one of the best/most versatile defenders in the league in his prime.

Draymond Green has an 8’ 9” standing reach. Hardly substandard. Also at no point did I say standing reach was the only driver of success. I said it was very hard to be elite (not impossible) without it.

 

[ESP47]

the data is in front of you. And I stated drafting Davion was dumb from day 1 and that he had zero chance of guarding SF’s. Many here agreed with Monte he could guard SF’s which was ridiculous.

I feel like the main problem with Davion was his defense really only applied to 1 on 1 iso situations and he rarely ever encountered that in the NBA. Having an elite skill that only applies to 1% of the plays while you're on the court doesn't really cover for all the other situations where he was a liability.

You could be right about Carter but I'd like to get my eyes on him on the NBA court before making any hasty assessments. It's not crazy to say that the odds are lower that an NBA player will be successful if they don't have good measurements.

 

[funkykingston]

dude fine post your opinion why you think he will be good. Or better let’s review what you said about Davion on draft day.

Davion is not Carter and vice versa.

The 2021 draft is one of the few where I was very right about the prospects I wanted the Kings to draft. My board was Wagner, Sengun, Kuminga, and Jalen Johnson. I didn't like the Davion pick at the time for several reasons - the biggest being that he seemed from the start to be a career backup PG on a team that already had Fox & Haliburton due to his lack of high level scoring or playmaking and inability to switch defensively.

In this years draft, my board for the Kings was Carter, Carrington, Cody Williams, DaSilva, Filipowski and Dunn. We'll see how that shakes out.

But Devin Carter is a combo guard who can definitely guard PGs & SGs and some SFs. I don't think he can guard bigs or big wings consistently, but he's strong and active enough to tag the roller, be the low man on switches and generally battle bigger guys for part of a possesion in addition to being a strong rebounder and occasional weakside shotblocker.

He's not Derrick White. Anyone who saw White during his lone season would likely agree that he was a much smoother and polished offensive player than Carter, but Devin was a more disruptive defender. He reminds me more of Bruce Brown who absolutely can guard 1-3 effectively.

 

[sactowndog]

I feel like the main problem with Davion was his defense really only applied to 1 on 1 iso situations and he rarely ever encountered that in the NBA. Having an elite skill that only applies to 1% of the plays while you're on the court doesn't really cover for all the other situations where he was a liability.

You could be right about Carter but I'd like to get my eyes on him on the NBA court before making any hasty assessments. It's not crazy to say that the odds are lower that an NBA player will be successful if they don't have good measurements.

I could be right or wrong. Kind of pointless to state your hypothesis after the fact. I feel I was mostly correct on Davion and it remains to be seen on Carter.

 

[sactowndog]

Davion is not Carter and vice versa.

The 2021 draft is one of the few where I was very right about the prospects I wanted the Kings to draft. My board was Wagner, Sengun, Kuminga, and Jalen Johnson. I didn't like the Davion pick at the time for several reasons - the biggest being that he seemed from the start to be a career backup PG on a team that already had Fox & Haliburton due to his lack of high level scoring or playmaking and inability to switch defensively.

In this years draft, my board for the Kings was Carter, Carrington, Cody Williams, DaSilva, Filipowski and Dunn. We'll see how that shakes out.

But Devin Carter is a combo guard who can definitely guard PGs & SGs and some SFs. I don't think he can guard bigs or big wings consistently, but he's strong and active enough to tag the roller, be the low man on switches and generally battle bigger guys for part of a possesion in addition to being a strong rebounder and occasional weakside shotblocker.

He's not Derrick White. Anyone who saw White during his lone season would likely agree that he was a much smoother and polished offensive player than Carter, but Devin was a more disruptive defender. He reminds me more of Bruce Brown who absolutely can guard 1-3 effectively.

the bolded part is where we disagree. I think he can guard PG, some shooting guard and no small forward. But we shall see. Our opinion has zero impact so it’s just for mental amusement to see who turns out to be correct.

 

[The_Jamal]

the bolded part is where we disagree. I think he can guard PG, some shooting guard and no small forward. But we shall see. Our opinion has zero impact so it’s just for mental amusement to see who turns out to be correct.

"Guarding SFs" doesn't mean checking them for 30 minutes a game. It's being able to survive a switch onto them, which Carter should be more than capable of

 

[SacTownKid]

"Guarding SFs" doesn't mean checking them for 30 minutes a game. It's being able to survive a switch onto them, which Carter should be more than capable of

Exactly. And since in that video above where we have video proof of instances where a few C's and PF's didn't just blast through him on switches it's likely a good sign to, at the very least, be optimistic about his potential in regards to versatility.

 

[dude12]

"Guarding SFs" doesn't mean checking them for 30 minutes a game. It's being able to survive a switch onto them, which Carter should be more than capable of

Exactly. There are too many NBA people who should know saying we got a steal for him not panning out. No one ever said we got a steal when we picked Davion. This is not the same thing and wing span, length, standing reach probably goes out the windows here.