Fox, Simmons, and Beal (with Bagley and Avidja)

[Capt. Factorial]

while I certainly wouldn’t mind having him, I don’t think we be falling over ourselves to trade Fox for him and cap filler unless there’s significant draft compensation coming back with it (The Knicks do have the Mavs 2023 pick from the Porzingis trade and the Hornets first rounder next year in addition to their own picks so it’s not an impossibility for sure)

Totally agree, but I have to say I'm not super enamored of the Hornets/Mavs picks because of the protections. They're useful, sure, but there's just no real shot of getting an elite player out of them. Throw in some pick swaps on top and I start listening. This *is* De'Aaron Fox we're talking about here, not chump change.

 

[Tetsujin]

Totally agree, but I have to say I'm not super enamored of the Hornets/Mavs picks because of the protections. They're useful, sure, but there's just no real shot of getting an elite player out of them. Throw in some pick swaps on top and I start listening. This *is* De'Aaron Fox we're talking about here, not chump change.

Yeah, I was thinking more like we'd get their unprotected picks from those seasons (or even ideally one of those "have your pick" scenarios where we get to choose whatever of their picks ends up the highest or both) plus a pick swap in that intervening year. Not anticipating a Harden haul or anything but we'd definitely need unprotected picks from at least two drafts for me to pull the trigger, especially since a Fox trade would probably involve us having to probably eat at least two of D-Rose or Alec Burks or Kemba Walker's salaries for the next two to three years to work against the cap.

So it would be at least an RJ Barrett + Kemba + Alec Burks + 2022 Unprotected Knicks pick + 2023 best of Mavs/Knicks pick + 2024 unprotected Knicks pick/swap for De'Aaron Fox + Robert Woodard (included in the deal or simply cut to fit the extra players onto the roster). Ideally, you'd try to work a third team into this deal to take on at least one of Kemba or Burks to lessen the burden/get extra assets but Burks' contract is sorta bad and the narrative around Kemba at this point might make that hard to do.

I still think there are better options to be had if we really tried to but this, coupled with moving Barnes/Buddy/Holmes to bottom out fast and turn our own pick into a high lotto one and gather extra assets, wouldn't be a bad option as far as a quick teardown is concerned.

With Tyrese and RJ and Davion already on the roster, you probably wouldn't need a 3-4 year rebuild to get into the playoff picture and with a little lotto luck/position maneuvering using some of those extra picks, might even have enough impact players off the bat to make a run next season.

 

[kb02]

Yeah, I was thinking more like we'd get their unprotected picks from those seasons (or even ideally one of those "have your pick" scenarios where we get to choose whatever of their picks ends up the highest or both) plus a pick swap in that intervening year. Not anticipating a Harden haul or anything but we'd definitely need unprotected picks from at least two drafts for me to pull the trigger, especially since a Fox trade would probably involve us having to probably eat at least two of D-Rose or Alec Burks or Kemba Walker's salaries for the next two to three years to work against the cap.

So it would be at least an RJ Barrett + Kemba + Alec Burks + 2022 Unprotected Knicks pick + 2023 best of Mavs/Knicks pick + 2024 unprotected Knicks pick/swap for De'Aaron Fox + Robert Woodard (included in the deal or simply cut to fit the extra players onto the roster). Ideally, you'd try to work a third team into this deal to take on at least one of Kemba or Burks to lessen the burden/get extra assets but Burks' contract is sorta bad and the narrative around Kemba at this point might make that hard to do.

I still think there are better options to be had if we really tried to but this, coupled with moving Barnes/Buddy/Holmes to bottom out fast and turn our own pick into a high lotto one and gather extra assets, wouldn't be a bad option as far as a quick teardown is concerned.

With Tyrese and RJ and Davion already on the roster, you probably wouldn't need a 3-4 year rebuild to get into the playoff picture and with a little lotto luck/position maneuvering using some of those extra picks, might even have enough impact players off the bat to make a run next season.

Don’t want to trade Fox for a 3 time all star, who is also all NBA defense, but willing to trade him for Barrett, who has a lower ceiling than Fox, and a few firsts. The goal is to upgrade talent not downgrade.

 

[Tetsujin]

Don’t want to trade Fox for a 3 time all star, who is also all NBA defense, but willing to trade him for Barrett, who has a lower ceiling than Fox, and a few firsts. The goal is to upgrade talent not downgrade.

The goal in this trade is to win in the future but lose immediately. Trading Fox for Simmons and resting on our laurels just extends the losing indefinitely.

 

[kb02]

The goal in this trade is to win in the future but lose immediately. Trading Fox for Simmons and resting on our laurels just extends the losing indefinitely.

Kings make the playoffs with Simmons if the trade happens sooner than later.

 

[Warhawk]

Kings make the playoffs with Simmons if the trade happens sooner than later.

Maybe, but only if he plays. He sure isn't doing that now, is he?

I'm not sure how I feel for a Fox for Simmons trade. Fox likely has slightly less overall "talent/skill", but he isn't afraid to shoot the rock and he plays though just about anything without "holding out" on the team. There are some serious concerns about Simmons at this point, and they aren't imaginary. If we did get Simmons, who's to say which version we get (the all-star or the guy afraid to shoot) or if he even plays? I don't care how good he is, if he isn't on the floor what does it matter?

 

[kb02]

Maybe, but only if he plays. He sure isn't doing that now, is he?

I'm not sure how I feel for a Fox for Simmons trade. Fox likely has slightly less overall "talent/skill", but he isn't afraid to shoot the rock and he plays though just about anything without "holding out" on the team. There are some serious concerns about Simmons at this point, and they aren't imaginary. If we did get Simmons, who's to say which version we get (the all-star or the guy afraid to shoot) or if he even plays? I don't care how good he is, if he isn't on the floor what does it matter?

This isn’t a Fultz situation, this is a max pain situation for both sides (Philly and Ben) where Klutch is trying to force a trade.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/maxpain.asp

 

[kb02]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1473883708876902416

 

[Warhawk]

This isn’t a Fultz situation, this is a max pain situation for both sides (Philly and Ben) where Klutch is trying to force a trade.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/maxpain.asp

If that is truly what it is, then he should just straight sit out instead of calling it a mental health issue and saying he isn't mentally prepared to play. You can't play it both ways. You can't claim a mental health issue on one side and then say that it's all just to force a trade on the other. That's demeaning to those who genuinely suffer from mental health issues and legitimately calls to question how he'll behave the next time he gets his knickers in a twist.

 

[kb02]

If that is truly what it is, then he should just straight sit out instead of calling it a mental health issue and saying he isn't mentally prepared to play. You can't play it both ways. You can't claim a mental health issue on one side and then say that it's all just to force a trade on the other. That's demeaning to those who genuinely suffer from mental health issues and legitimately calls to question how he'll behave the next time he gets his knickers in a twist.

That’s an issue for his advisors. They have a responsibility to protect his economic interest. How they do so, it’s not for me to judge.

As for the player, he is the perfect fit next to Hali and Mitchell. Two connectors on offense and two connectors on defense. This is Monte’s window. C’mon Monte!

 

[Sac.Kings]

First off, the trade would have to have more pieces than that because salaries don't remotely work. We'd have to take on another $13.7M at least to make it work - just enough that Derrick Rose doesn't even get it done.

Second off, do we even want Kemba Walker?

Third, if the rumor is talking about picks this year and next, then it's probably talking about the 2022 protected Charlotte (guaranteed never to be in the lottery and could turn into 2nds) and the 2023 protected Dallas pick (guaranteed never to be top-10 and could turn into a 2nd).

A deal like this is selling Fox's value incredibly short, and would be a disaster.

Kemba is a well respected veteran in the league, you could do a lot worse with a veteran PG presence. The Knicks are trailing off right now after a very surprising start. I was under the impression that the 2022 pick would be their own and the ‘23 would indeed be Dallas’s pick, but that’s on me as I didn’t fully investigate the matter and took the article at face value. I love Fox and parting with him would be a tough loss for us, so I’m definitely not trying to give him away. Like I said, at least 1 first round pick that isn’t heavily protected has to be headed our way in any trade, otherwise don’t do it. However, Fox has not proven to be a winner in the league nor is he an all star so we can’t expect a “King’s” ransom for him either. It has to be something for us to build our future on.

 

[Warhawk]

That’s an issue for his advisors. They have a responsibility to protect his economic interest. How they do so, it’s not for me to judge.

Well, there sure seems to be a lot of judging of Fox and others going on, but pulling a chicken**** move like this to your team and claiming it is a "mental health" issue if it isn't, and it's "not for you to judge"? Convenient.

Your agents are doing your bidding. You can tell them what to do and what not to do. This isn't an "agent" thing. They can suggest things, but they work for the players, not the other way around. If you go along with it, it's on you.

If you don't like their advice or what they are doing you can always fire them and get new ones. Happens frequently.

 

[kb02]

Well, there sure seems to be a lot of judging of Fox and others going on, but pulling a chicken**** move like this to your team and claiming it is a "mental health" issue if it isn't, and it's "not for you to judge"? Convenient.

You can judge it as much as you want.

Pull the trigger while Ben’s value is artificially depressed, Monte!

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I was under the impression that the 2022 pick would be their own and the ‘23 would indeed be Dallas’s pick, but that’s on me as I didn’t fully investigate the matter and took the article at face value.

To be clear, I didn't see the article (no link was provided and I don't know where it was from), so I was speculating on what picks the Knicks would likely want to offer.

 

[Biggie_swizzz]

Well, there sure seems to be a lot of judging of Fox and others going on, but pulling a chicken**** move like this to your team and claiming it is a "mental health" issue if it isn't, and it's "not for you to judge"? Convenient.

Your agents are doing your bidding. You can tell them what to do and what not to do. This isn't an "agent" thing. They can suggest things, but they work for the players, not the other way around. If you go along with it, it's on you.

If you don't like their advice or what they are doing you can always fire them and get new ones. Happens frequently.

Have you been under a rock? Ben said he wanted out of Philly like a month after getting bashed by Embiid and Doc after playoffs. Rich Paul has gotten many superstars to force trades. Ben is coming up with excuses not to play there, because he himself said he never wants to play another game in Philly. He said he'd go to any other team before playing for Philly. I don't blame him either. After getting bashed by my own teammates and coach on National TV, I'd tell them to pee off as well. And he said he wouldn't mind playing in Sac? Why the hell wouldn't people want to trade Fox for a player like Simmons? Because Fox has brought us so much success? Simmons is an elite defender in a league where players don't play defense. He's a monster inside the paint. Hell of a distributor.

I don't get why people hate this man so much. It really boggles my mind. We have 3 PGs and Fox hasn't led us anywhere. There's an opportunity to get an AllStar and Sac says Fox is off the table? What's the plan Monte? Have Fox for another 3 years, have no playoffs and then trade him for peanuts like we usually do?

 

[Warhawk]

Have you been under a rock? Ben said he wanted out of Philly like a month after getting bashed by Embiid and Doc after playoffs. Rich Paul has gotten many superstars to force trades. Ben is coming up with excuses not to play there, because he himself said he never wants to play another game in Philly. He said he'd go to any other team before playing for Philly. I don't blame him either. After getting bashed by my own teammates and coach on National TV, I'd tell them to pee off as well. And he said he wouldn't mind playing in Sac? Why the hell wouldn't people want to trade Fox for a player like Simmons? Because Fox has brought us so much success? Simmons is an elite defender in a league where players don't play defense. He's a monster inside the paint. Hell of a distributor.

I don't get why people hate this man so much. It really boggles my mind. We have 3 PGs and Fox hasn't led us anywhere. There's an opportunity to get an AllStar and Sac says Fox is off the table? What's the plan Monte? Have Fox for another 3 years, have no playoffs and then trade him for peanuts like we usually do?

A) No, I'm above ground, thank you.
B) Players request trades sometimes. They don't claim mental health issues along the way (at least, this is the first time I can recall this happening). So, either there is something to this or it's a particularly insensitive and gross way of going about throwing a hissy fit.
C) Oh, so his coaches criticized his play? The horror! That never happens on other teams.... What happens if a coach here criticizes his play? Are we going to go through "mental health issues" again (either real or imagined)?
D) I never said I don't want a player like Simmons. If you actually read my posts I've been critical of his specific behavior regarding this and concerned about his lack of shooting ability, but have stated he's probably more talented/skilled than Fox, etc. He's a multi-time all-star. Nobody is refuting that. He has some skills that would be very welcome here. He has some lack of skills that would be hard to build around (specifically, shooting, as well as willingness to shoot, apparently, coupled with a poor free throw %). For a league that has moved to 3-point shooting being a high priority, trading a player who is somewhat decent (not great) at it for someone who literally can't hit the broad side of a barn unless he's inside the paint is a legitimate concern. If we were trading a big for him that likewise lived in the paint offensively, that's one thing. But swapping out Fox for Simmons sure isn't going to help solve our outside shooting issues, and we aren't that great to begin with. And if he does get to the line, it's almost a coin flip whether he's going to make it.
E) You throw around "hate" when it is just a legitimate concern about stated (by him/his "team") mental health issues and "inability to play basketball". If he just said he wanted out and sat out, that's one thing (and I could respect that, to a certain extent). But this appears to be something much more serious (as stated by him/his "team"). He's not saying he won't play to force a trade, he's saying he can't play. And when you are sitting on 3+ years of a VERY expensive contract, availability is the best ability to have.

In summary, I am not saying "don't do it", I'm saying you better be very darn sure that this:
A) isn't indicative of a serious ongoing mental health issue.
B) isn't something he'd pull again the moment he gets criticized if it isn't A).
C) won't cost us too much in the way of assets if we do trade for him. While our defense will likely improve, his lack of shooting ability can limit certain player combinations, etc., without clogging up the paint on the offensive side of things. We need to improve our 3-point shooting, and this move wouldn't help that. His poor FT shooting percentage doesn't help much either if he's living in the paint.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Have you been under a rock? Ben said he wanted out of Philly like a month after getting bashed by Embiid and Doc after playoffs. Rich Paul has gotten many superstars to force trades. Ben is coming up with excuses not to play there, because he himself said he never wants to play another game in Philly. He said he'd go to any other team before playing for Philly. I don't blame him either. After getting bashed by my own teammates and coach on National TV, I'd tell them to pee off as well. And he said he wouldn't mind playing in Sac? Why the hell wouldn't people want to trade Fox for a player like Simmons? Because Fox has brought us so much success? Simmons is an elite defender in a league where players don't play defense. He's a monster inside the paint. Hell of a distributor.

I don't get why people hate this man so much. It really boggles my mind. We have 3 PGs and Fox hasn't led us anywhere. There's an opportunity to get an AllStar and Sac says Fox is off the table? What's the plan Monte? Have Fox for another 3 years, have no playoffs and then trade him for peanuts like we usually do?

He's not "off the table". This is chess, not checkers

 

[Tetsujin]

Have you been under a rock? Ben said he wanted out of Philly like a month after getting bashed by Embiid and Doc after playoffs. Rich Paul has gotten many superstars to force trades. Ben is coming up with excuses not to play there, because he himself said he never wants to play another game in Philly. He said he'd go to any other team before playing for Philly. I don't blame him either. After getting bashed by my own teammates and coach on National TV, I'd tell them to pee off as well. And he said he wouldn't mind playing in Sac? Why the hell wouldn't people want to trade Fox for a player like Simmons? Because Fox has brought us so much success? Simmons is an elite defender in a league where players don't play defense. He's a monster inside the paint. Hell of a distributor.

I don't get why people hate this man so much. It really boggles my mind. We have 3 PGs and Fox hasn't led us anywhere. There's an opportunity to get an AllStar and Sac says Fox is off the table? What's the plan Monte? Have Fox for another 3 years, have no playoffs and then trade him for peanuts like we usually do?

Ben's sister also accused his brother/manager of raping her and sued him and he's been dealing with the mental strain of being in the middle of that all year (in addition to the general wave of hate he's been getting from Philadelphia and how terrible the last two years have been in general) and has had mental health concerns going all the way back to college so let's not act like all of his issues will just magically go away with a change of scenery. By doing so, we're potentially trivializing what could actually be legitimate mental health issues (speaking as a two time survivor of suicide).


We don't want another Ricky Berry.

 

[kb02]

Ben's sister also accused his brother/manager of raping her and sued him and he's been dealing with the mental strain of being in the middle of that all year (in addition to the general wave of hate he's been getting from Philadelphia and how terrible the last two years have been in general) and has had mental health concerns going all the way back to college so let's not act like all of his issues will just magically go away with a change of scenery. By doing so, we're potentially trivializing what could actually be legitimate mental health issues (speaking as a two time survivor of suicide).


We don't want another Ricky Berry.

Mods really going to allow this discussion to go down this route?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Mods really going to allow this discussion to go down this route?

I wasn't aware of those allegations, so it's probably useful to have it noted simply so people can read up on it. That said, I'm not quite sure which route it is that is out of bounds here, as long as discussion doesn't get heated.

 

[The_Jamal]

Yeah, I was thinking more like we'd get their unprotected picks from those seasons (or even ideally one of those "have your pick" scenarios where we get to choose whatever of their picks ends up the highest or both) plus a pick swap in that intervening year. Not anticipating a Harden haul or anything but we'd definitely need unprotected picks from at least two drafts for me to pull the trigger, especially since a Fox trade would probably involve us having to probably eat at least two of D-Rose or Alec Burks or Kemba Walker's salaries for the next two to three years to work against the cap.

So it would be at least an RJ Barrett + Kemba + Alec Burks + 2022 Unprotected Knicks pick + 2023 best of Mavs/Knicks pick + 2024 unprotected Knicks pick/swap for De'Aaron Fox + Robert Woodard (included in the deal or simply cut to fit the extra players onto the roster). Ideally, you'd try to work a third team into this deal to take on at least one of Kemba or Burks to lessen the burden/get extra assets but Burks' contract is sorta bad and the narrative around Kemba at this point might make that hard to do.

I still think there are better options to be had if we really tried to but this, coupled with moving Barnes/Buddy/Holmes to bottom out fast and turn our own pick into a high lotto one and gather extra assets, wouldn't be a bad option as far as a quick teardown is concerned.

With Tyrese and RJ and Davion already on the roster, you probably wouldn't need a 3-4 year rebuild to get into the playoff picture and with a little lotto luck/position maneuvering using some of those extra picks, might even have enough impact players off the bat to make a run next season.

Yeah that would be my thinking with a deal like this. If you snake RJ/Obi and a future 1st (or 2 future FRP, no Obi), contract, Get decent value for Holmes/Barnes/Buddy I don't think this would take very long to reset. We'd likely head into next year with the Ty/Hali/RJ/top 5 pick (hard to believe we wouldn't be in the top 5 worst teams after shipping the vets), and a solid warchest of future FRP. And as we've been saying, with some lotto luck and getting into the top 3, where it looks like we'll be in place to draft a cornerstone guy.

There's several teams too like the Bulls and Knicks with some young assets and in a clear win-now 2-3 year window. @twslam07 idea of grabbing Pat WIlliams+DJJ for Barnes makes so much sense. So does Holmes to the Warriors for one of their young guys.

 

[Tetsujin]

I wasn't aware of those allegations, so it's probably useful to have it noted simply so people can read up on it. That said, I'm not quite sure which route it is that is out of bounds here, as long as discussion doesn't get heated.

Just posting my sources for posterity but not wanting to sidetrack the discussion
The initial accusation story

Apparently his sister wound up having to pay the brother she accused a half million dollars

https://twitter.com/statuses/1380753934986444800

 

[Biggie_swizzz]

A) No, I'm above ground, thank you.
B) Players request trades sometimes. They don't claim mental health issues along the way (at least, this is the first time I can recall this happening). So, either there is something to this or it's a particularly insensitive and gross way of going about throwing a hissy fit.
C) Oh, so his coaches criticized his play? The horror! That never happens on other teams.... What happens if a coach here criticizes his play? Are we going to go through "mental health issues" again (either real or imagined)?
D) I never said I don't want a player like Simmons. If you actually read my posts I've been critical of his specific behavior regarding this and concerned about his lack of shooting ability, but have stated he's probably more talented/skilled than Fox, etc. He's a multi-time all-star. Nobody is refuting that. He has some skills that would be very welcome here. He has some lack of skills that would be hard to build around (specifically, shooting, as well as willingness to shoot, apparently, coupled with a poor free throw %). For a league that has moved to 3-point shooting being a high priority, trading a player who is somewhat decent (not great) at it for someone who literally can't hit the broad side of a barn unless he's inside the paint is a legitimate concern. If we were trading a big for him that likewise lived in the paint offensively, that's one thing. But swapping out Fox for Simmons sure isn't going to help solve our outside shooting issues, and we aren't that great to begin with. And if he does get to the line, it's almost a coin flip whether he's going to make it.
E) You throw around "hate" when it is just a legitimate concern about stated (by him/his "team") mental health issues and "inability to play basketball". If he just said he wanted out and sat out, that's one thing (and I could respect that, to a certain extent). But this appears to be something much more serious (as stated by him/his "team"). He's not saying he won't play to force a trade, he's saying he can't play. And when you are sitting on 3+ years of a VERY expensive contract, availability is the best ability to have.

In summary, I am not saying "don't do it", I'm saying you better be very darn sure that this:
A) isn't indicative of a serious ongoing mental health issue.
B) isn't something he'd pull again the moment he gets criticized if it isn't A).
C) won't cost us too much in the way of assets if we do trade for him. While our defense will likely improve, his lack of shooting ability can limit certain player combinations, etc., without clogging up the paint on the offensive side of things. We need to improve our 3-point shooting, and this move wouldn't help that. His poor FT shooting percentage doesn't help much either if he's living in the paint.

A) good just checking
B) players have done a multitude of things to push the strain on management in order to get a trade to fruition. Mental illness isn't an ordinary option, but many articles released support the argument that it isn't a legitimate concern.
C) Critiquing a player is one thing. Doing it publicly and blaming the player for the loss is another. Railroading him at a press conference is out of line. There are 12 players on an active roster. To place blame on one player is ridiculous and unprofessional leading down a path of disfunction. Downplaying criticism to fit your narrative will work for most, buy not me.
D) Your claims are all pointing towards the negative, creating an inference that you are against a trade. His defense is elite. His inability to shoot isn't a concern when you have an elite defender that can run the floor and is practically unstoppable in transition. He would be playing the 4 here in Sac and remind me which of our magnificent PFs shoot lights out again? You got me there with his FT%, that is a legitimate concern that does worry me. Saying we struggle with 3 point shooting is accurately statistically, but Fox shooting an abysmal number behind the arc while having Buddy chucking up garbage hailmakers doesn't help. We have capable three Point shooters that get less opportunities out on the floor, as well as our best shooter imo Haliburton not being as aggressive as he should since Fox is the "leader" of the squad. I put that in quotes because as I love Fox, he isn't as vocal as Haliburton is, but still has the leadership role. I'm all about getting a better defender with capable three Point shooting out of a SF through a trade for Buddy and Bagley.
E) He may have a mental issue with shooting, but I do not think he is anywhere near a Rick Berry. He literally threw a championship game....on purpose. And that Warriors team hated him.


Fox for Simmons is our best gamble at being relevant in my opinion. No All Stars come to Sacramento. Like I said previously, we have revitalized many careers here in Sac and having a place with less stress and more inviting fans for a player that does indeed need to develop aspects of his game would be an ideal landing destination.

 

[kb02]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1474837543178833921

 

[Biggie_swizzz]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1474837543178833921

He's got my All Star and ROY vote

 

[Warhawk]

A) good just checking
B) players have done a multitude of things to push the strain on management in order to get a trade to fruition. Mental illness isn't an ordinary option, but many articles released support the argument that it isn't a legitimate concern. I'm not prepared to do so. If he just held out for a trade, that's a much more respectable and upfront way to go about it. The way he went about it is slimy and disgusting.
C) Critiquing a player is one thing. Doing it publicly and blaming the player for the loss is another. Railroading him at a press conference is out of line. There are 12 players on an active roster. To place blame on one player is ridiculous and unprofessional leading down a path of disfunction. Downplaying criticism to fit your narrative will work for most, buy not me.
D) Your claims are all pointing towards the negative, creating an inference that you are against a trade. His defense is elite. His inability to shoot isn't a concern when you have an elite defender that can run the floor and is practically unstoppable in transition. He would be playing the 4 here in Sac and remind me which of our magnificent PFs shoot lights out again? You got me there with his FT%, that is a legitimate concern that does worry me. Saying we struggle with 3 point shooting is accurately statistically, but Fox shooting an abysmal number behind the arc while having Buddy chucking up garbage hailmakers doesn't help. We have capable three Point shooters that get less opportunities out on the floor, as well as our best shooter imo Haliburton not being as aggressive as he should since Fox is the "leader" of the squad. I put that in quotes because as I love Fox, he isn't as vocal as Haliburton is, but still has the leadership role. I'm all about getting a better defender with capable three Point shooting out of a SF through a trade for Buddy and Bagley.
E) He may have a mental issue with shooting, but I do not think he is anywhere near a Rick Berry. He literally threw a championship game....on purpose. And that Warriors team hated him.


Fox for Simmons is our best gamble at being relevant in my opinion. No All Stars come to Sacramento. Like I said previously, we have revitalized many careers here in Sac and having a place with less stress and more inviting fans for a player that does indeed need to develop aspects of his game would be an ideal landing destination.

B) Mental illness isn't something you throw around on a whim as an excuse. Many articles may downplay it, but his representation leaned hard into it and apparently there is more than a sprinkling of truth to it. Write it off at your own risk.
C) Boo hoo. Then maybe shoot the darn ball when you are free at the hoop and learn to shoot your free throws while you are at it. the Kings have been nothing if not disfunctional for what, 15 years? And you want to bring in someone who seems to have an inordinate reaction to team disfunction here to play? Maybe you should reconsider that thought process.
D) You can infer whatever you want. I've said he's overall the more talented player. But talent isn't everything. Being available to play is important. Being a teammate that can be trusted is important. Potential mental health issues are important. Being able to shoot the ball is important. Not being able to be on the floor in crunch time is important. All of these are issues with Simmons. You can't just snap your fingers and click your heels 3 times and pretend these are not major factors for consideration.

 

[See_Hanks]

Well looks like Fox can be on the block. Hali is killing it at PG and looks to be better all around than Fox IMO. Since taking over the guy is putting up 20+ppg 10+apg 5+ rpg on 50%+ FG and 50+% 3pt.... Seems the kid can get his own shot easier when he just does it himself. He's a good enough shooter though where he can just take as many shots as he wants. He needs to know he's the best shooter on the team, and needs to take more shots!

But Fox/Hield/Bagley can all be on the block. I can live with Hali/Mitchell back court for now.

 

[Biggie_swizzz]

B) Mental illness isn't something you throw around on a whim as an excuse. Many articles may downplay it, but his representation leaned hard into it and apparently there is more than a sprinkling of truth to it. Write it off at your own risk.
C) Boo hoo. Then maybe shoot the darn ball when you are free at the hoop and learn to shoot your free throws while you are at it. the Kings have been nothing if not disfunctional for what, 15 years? And you want to bring in someone who seems to have an inordinate reaction to team disfunction here to play? Maybe you should reconsider that thought process.
D) You can infer whatever you want. I've said he's overall the more talented player. But talent isn't everything. Being available to play is important. Being a teammate that can be trusted is important. Potential mental health issues are important. Being able to shoot the ball is important. Not being able to be on the floor in crunch time is important. All of these are issues with Simmons. You can't just snap your fingers and click your heels 3 times and pretend these are not major factors for consideration.

B) An excuse is whatever you want it to be in order to push a trade. Like I said there are plenty of articles calling his Mental issues a non issue. Believe whatever you want, I really don't care.
C) Downplaying a mutiny is quite cute of you. There are 11 other guys on a roster and you still wanna play it out like it was all one dudes fault. Real cute. Yeah we've been irrelevant for 15 seasons and you stick your nose up to an Allstar, typical casual.
D)Fox can't shoot, Fox is abysmal at the line, can't defend, has been awful during crunch time and has never made a playoff appearance. So where's your argument for that? Hop off your high horse and realize the team needs to take risks in order to get somewhere. Don't want to take risks? Looks like subpar mediocrity will be the Kings Future for another 15 years.

 

[Warhawk]

B) An excuse is whatever you want it to be in order to push a trade. Like I said there are plenty of articles calling his Mental issues a non issue. Believe whatever you want, I really don't care.
C) Downplaying a mutiny is quite cute of you. There are 11 other guys on a roster and you still wanna play it out like it was all one dudes fault. Real cute. Yeah we've been irrelevant for 15 seasons and you stick your nose up to an Allstar, typical casual.
D)Fox can't shoot, Fox is abysmal at the line, can't defend, has been awful during crunch time and has never made a playoff appearance. So where's your argument for that? Hop off your high horse and realize the team needs to take risks in order to get somewhere. Don't want to take risks? Looks like subpar mediocrity will be the Kings Future for another 15 years.

B) Thanks for allowing me to believe what I want. Mighty generous of you. I'd also remind you that his own agent is the one saying it is a real issue. This isn't some made up quote or topic. Lots of people type lots of things to try to make problems go away. If it isn't an issue, he sure made it one with the false claims and then refuses to set the matter straight. For his sake, I hope it isn't really a problem. But you can't just wish it away, and his doubling down on it either reinforces some VERY poor decision making (its own big red flag, instead of just standing up and saying "I'm holding out for a trade") or it means it is indeed a real issue. You can't have it both ways, and neither option is good.
C) Mutiny? Man, you just keep piling it on with the hyperbole. Again, I've never said don't trade for him, but don't give away the farm to do so and make sure that his self-declared mental health issues are already taken care of. Otherwise we might be paying a King's ransom for a player that won't even hit the floor for us. No matter what you think of Fox, trading him for Simmons and having Simmons sitting on the bench sure isn't helping us at all. Ben Simmons himself said he "shouldered the blame": Ben Simmons shoulders blame after Philadelphia 76ers' second-round playoff exit - 'Offensively, I wasn't there' (espn.com)
D) I've never said Fox is the answer. He definitely has things to improve on - nobody disputes that. But he's certainly not "abysmal" at the line (that's Simmons, not Fox) and Fox has well over double the career shooting % from 3 and shoots them at a much higher clip.

From the article above:

He (Simmons) shot 15-for-45 (33%) on foul shots against Atlanta and 34.2% from the line for the 2021 playoffs overall, accounting for the worst free throw percentage in NBA playoff history for a player with at least 70 attempts, according to research by ESPN Stats & Information.

The Hawks held him under 10 points in four out of the seven games in the conference semifinals, including his five-point showing Sunday.

He was particularly unreliable at the end of games, failing to attempt a single shot in the fourth quarter in five out of the seven games, with many believing the disappearing act came in direct correlation to his lack of confidence at the free throw line.

That's not just poor shooting, it is historically bad shooting. Also, that's an entire unwillingness to shoot. Darn right someone said something about it, and he agreed.

And this isn't exactly throwing someone under a bus - and frankly, having a coach tell the truth is what I like to hear:

Sixers coach Doc Rivers was asked a question postgame that cuts to the core of where Philadelphia stands as a franchise after a fourth straight season failing to make it past the second round with Simmons as a foundational piece: Can the 76ers expect to win a championship with him as their point guard?

"I don't know that question or the answer to that right now," Rivers said. "So I don't know the answer to that."

Whew, some pretty harsh words right there. I'm surprised anyone could have withstood that barrage.

 

[mac]

B) Thanks for allowing me to believe what I want. Mighty generous of you. I'd also remind you that his own agent is the one saying it is a real issue. This isn't some made up quote or topic. Lots of people type lots of things to try to make problems go away. If it isn't an issue, he sure made it one with the false claims and then refuses to set the matter straight. For his sake, I hope it isn't really a problem. But you can't just wish it away, and his doubling down on it either reinforces some VERY poor decision making (its own big red flag, instead of just standing up and saying "I'm holding out for a trade") or it means it is indeed a real issue. You can't have it both ways, and neither option is good.
C) Mutiny? Man, you just keep piling it on with the hyperbole. Again, I've never said don't trade for him, but don't give away the farm to do so and make sure that his self-declared mental health issues are already taken care of. Otherwise we might be paying a King's ransom for a player that won't even hit the floor for us. No matter what you think of Fox, trading him for Simmons and having Simmons sitting on the bench sure isn't helping us at all. Ben Simmons himself said he "shouldered the blame": Ben Simmons shoulders blame after Philadelphia 76ers' second-round playoff exit - 'Offensively, I wasn't there' (espn.com)
D) I've never said Fox is the answer. He definitely has things to improve on - nobody disputes that. But he's certainly not "abysmal" at the line (that's Simmons, not Fox) and Fox has well over double the career shooting % from 3 and shoots them at a much higher clip.

From the article above:

He (Simmons) shot 15-for-45 (33%) on foul shots against Atlanta and 34.2% from the line for the 2021 playoffs overall, accounting for the worst free throw percentage in NBA playoff history for a player with at least 70 attempts, according to research by ESPN Stats & Information.

The Hawks held him under 10 points in four out of the seven games in the conference semifinals, including his five-point showing Sunday.

He was particularly unreliable at the end of games, failing to attempt a single shot in the fourth quarter in five out of the seven games, with many believing the disappearing act came in direct correlation to his lack of confidence at the free throw line.

That's not just poor shooting, it is historically bad shooting. Also, that's an entire unwillingness to shoot. Darn right someone said something about it, and he agreed.

And this isn't exactly throwing someone under a bus - and frankly, having a coach tell the truth is what I like to hear:

Sixers coach Doc Rivers was asked a question postgame that cuts to the core of where Philadelphia stands as a franchise after a fourth straight season failing to make it past the second round with Simmons as a foundational piece: Can the 76ers expect to win a championship with him as their point guard?

"I don't know that question or the answer to that right now," Rivers said. "So I don't know the answer to that."

Whew, some pretty harsh words right there. I'm surprised anyone could have withstood that barrage.

Regarding coach comments - you do realise that Cousins basically hated Karl and lots of fans here, probably including yourself supported him for it just cos Karl said no one was untradeable?