Dave Joerger

[Sac.1989]

And you know this how? Because everybody says so? Who's this "everybody" you're talking about? A bunch of people on social media? Or am I an idiot for questioning your sources? Is this the first time in the history of the world where we had a large organization and everyone agreed about absolutely everything, until this sinister plot to take over control of the team surfaced? Is this the first time in history that someone within an organization has tried to do some empire building or we've had some other office intrigue? Could it be that any problems have been resolved behind closed doors, and all anyone else has is speculation? Could it be that there is no longer any overlap in their responsibilities and so the possibility of conflict has been eliminated? Or that this whole thing actually is no big deal? The team is having an amazing season, and this is supposed to be really important why?

I know this because its clear as day given the facts.

Fact - Joerger doesnt want Williams anywhere near the team and Williams was at a point travelling to offset his being around.
Fact - Joerger believes Williams was source of the Yahoo story which stated he was at risk of being fired
Fact - The coaching staff were incredibly irked that Williams was involved in the communication of their extensions

Williams and Joerger personify a lack of cohesion between FO and Coaching. They will not cooperate with each other. If Vlade is confident in his ability to act as buffer between the two then that is a way forward as is separation.

 

[burekijogurt]

Sell me “Brandon”. Seriously. I thought he was getting credit for some peripheral ‘decent moves’ like Ferrell and Belly. I don’t see how he is central or sacred at all. Has he done cap magic? I could live the rest of my life as a Kings fan if Brandon Williams got eaten by a tiger tomorrow. Screw him.

I don’t understand any effort to marginalize Dave’s impact. He spoke of a 3 year plan. He’s executed ahead of schedule. He should leverage that... he should get paid.

Here is my GUESS as to how things are:

- Brandon was hired for his experince as far as operations/rules/regulations are concerned. Vlade values his know-how in these aspects.

- Brandon overstepped when he leaked to the media pushing his agenda.

- Dave overstepped when he retaliated and pushed for Brandon's firing.

- Vlade values what both bring to the table, but will not allow his hand to be forced one way or another by his subordinates throwing their (perceived) weight around.

- Neither Dave nor Brandon is safe if they don't perform their roles to Vlade's satisfaction, or if their political gamesmanship escalates.

- Vlade is not safe if ownership is not satisfied with his performance now that he seems to have a reign free from their interferance.

 

[Section 101]

It also reminds one of the situation in Oakland when Mark Jackson was fired. It goes both ways sometimes.

Huh? Jackson lost his team. Players dont have an issue with joerger.

 

[Kingsfan23]

It’s true that Joerger might be linked with Vlade. Vivek/ownership got burned twice having the coach before the management.

Personally I don’t find Vlade on very strong ground. I’m a little less critical of him as LaVine has looked stronger and Bagley has stepped up into showing strong glimpses, but there are decisions that could go against him with some in management (Luka/Sixers trade/Cousins the blatant controversial). Some can just want a seasoned eye, not a former player in that role. I think there are more voices than Vivek handling that.

Still, I’d think at this point you’d keep Joerger even if you wanted a another analytical eye as GM, and allow him with another FO. The problem is if Williams already has more power than we know and wants his own guy

 

[SacTownKid]

Might remind you of that. It doesn’t remind me of that.

You might want to read this and then compare to some of the "rumors" coming out of Sac in the last year.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/12/6/7344165/mark-jackson-warriors-reasons-joe-lacob

 

[SacTownKid]

Huh? Jackson lost his team. Players dont have an issue with joerger.

I think exit interviews will tell the tale. We won't hear them but that's when truth comes out usually. I doubt the players will throw him under the bus but we already have close to a verified example of Buddy Hield going directly to Vlade to talk. Now, it might have been nothing serious but that it happened means it wasn't just nothing.

 

[SacTownKid]

It’s true that Joerger might be linked with Vlade. Vivek/ownership got burned twice having the coach before the management.

Personally I don’t find Vlade on very strong ground. I’m a little less critical of him as LaVine has looked stronger and Bagley has stepped up into showing strong glimpses, but there are decisions that could go against him with some in management (Luka/Sixers trade/Cousins the blatant controversial). Some can just want a seasoned eye, not a former player in that role. I think there are more voices than Vivek handling that.

Still, I’d think at this point you’d keep Joerger even if you wanted a another analytical eye as GM, and allow him with another FO. The problem is if Williams already has more power than we know and wants his own guy

In the end he's stacked the team with talent and cap space. I think Vlade should be up for GM of the year even more than Joerger should get nods of coach of the year. He might even have lucked out on the Sixers deal considering this draft kind of sucks and the pick might be down in the lotto unless something crazy happens in the lottery. The knock on Vlade is that obviously some of the great things that happened were luck. Like being number 2 last year. The Kings didn't tank and for once it worked. Go figure.

 

[John Galt]

It’s true that Joerger might be linked with Vlade. Vivek/ownership got burned twice having the coach before the management.

Personally I don’t find Vlade on very strong ground. I’m a little less critical of him as LaVine has looked stronger and Bagley has stepped up into showing strong glimpses, but there are decisions that could go against him with some in management (Luka/Sixers trade/Cousins the blatant controversial). Some can just want a seasoned eye, not a former player in that role. I think there are more voices than Vivek handling that.

Still, I’d think at this point you’d keep Joerger even if you wanted a another analytical eye as GM, and allow him with another FO. The problem is if Williams already has more power than we know and wants his own guy

What is it about the Sixers trade and/or Cousins that can be held against him? Is it mitigating that the Sixers trade DID NOT HURT US or they the Cousins deal catapulted us from Dregs of the West to Playoff Bubble?
Someone gonna fire Vlade for the Bagley pick after the way the season played out and the upside evident with Bagley??

What
The
Eff
Is
Going
On
Here???

 

[ESP47]

I thought Joerger's first year as coach was a solid one with the piece he had.

His 2nd year was a massive waste of time running the entire team through ZBo.

3rd year I think he's been fantastic outside of one hiccup with this starting lineup after the Bagley injury. Should have gone back to Barnes at the 3 and Beli at the 4 sooner. Kings might be a game or 2 out of the playoffs if he did. Before the Bagley injury I thought he was coaching the team about as well as anyone could have hoped for. If the Kings weren't flirting with the playoffs all year, I'm sure he would have given Bagley and Giles more run out there. I think he did a great job balancing playoffs and development. He sat Beli on the bench once he thought Bagley was ready and I thought that was a great move. His only hiccup has been this small ball lineup we've seen recently.

I think he should be guaranteed another year. The team should be a playoff team next year so it's kind of a make it or break it season for him but if a Fox/Bagley/Hield go down for any substantial stretch of time and the Kings barely miss out, Joerger shouldn't be held accountable for that. Just like Malone, a coach should not be penalized for an injury to a player that causes the teams performance to fall off.

 

[63royals]

I know this because its clear as day given the facts.

Fact - Joerger doesnt want Williams anywhere near the team and Williams was at a point travelling to offset his being around.
Fact - Joerger believes Williams was source of the Yahoo story which stated he was at risk of being fired
Fact - The coaching staff were incredibly irked that Williams was involved in the communication of their extensions

Williams and Joerger personify a lack of cohesion between FO and Coaching. They will not cooperate with each other. If Vlade is confident in his ability to act as buffer between the two then that is a way forward as is separation.

OK, so you went with the I'm an idiot option since it's clear as day given the facts. The real question, in my mind, is whether or not any of your "facts" are actually true. You're stating speculations as if they were fact. 'Joerger doesn't ...', 'Joerger believes ...", "The coaching staff were incredibly irked". Oh really? Do you attend staff meetings, sit in on practices, is Joerger your buddy and just calls you once in a while for the heck of it? Is that how you know so much? And if you don't have first-hand information, you're relying on information from someone else. Plus -- and this is really important -- how much of this was once a problem but is no longer a problem? The best organizations keep a tight ship about stuff like this, so it may be that anyone else who claims to know what's going on inside the organization right now, in fact is only speculating.

Plus, you still haven't answered the question as to why, in the midst of an unexpectedly great season, this matters at all.

 

[sactowndog]

My comment is Dave has done some good things with the development of Fox, Buddy and Bagley. The development of WCS, Bogi, Giles and Justin Jackson has been more troubling. I think Dave does a great job with athletic players but I’m less certain how well he does with average athletes but hi IQ players.

I didn’t vote because at the end of the day I trust Vlade’s call. I think the front office (including Vlade) has some questions. Whether Dave’s performance this year tilted their opinion one way or another I can’t say.

Dave’s decision to go with the small ball line-up at a critical time and some less than stellar ATO plays at the end of key games is a negative. The fact the team was in position for those plays to matter is a huge positive. I think his relationship with his players will be a big factor and none of us know the truth.

At the end of the day you trust Vlade as the GM or not.

 

[SLAB]

How in Gods name is the development of Giles at all troubling?!

 

[sergmatt]

My comment is Dave has done some good things with the development of Fox, Buddy and Bagley. The development of WCS, Bogi, Giles and Justin Jackson has been more troubling. I think Dave does a great job with athletic players but I’m less certain how well he does with average athletes but hi IQ players.

I didn’t vote because at the end of the day I trust Vlade’s call. I think the front office (including Vlade) has some questions. Whether Dave’s performance this year tilted their opinion one way or another I can’t say.

Dave’s decision to go with the small ball line-up at a critical time and some less than stellar ATO plays at the end of key games is a negative. The fact the team was in position for those plays to matter is a huge positive. I think his relationship with his players will be a big factor and none of us know the truth.

At the end of the day you trust Vlade as the GM or not.

Agreed with some of what you wrote (especially about trusting Vlade) but disagree with some of it especially about how Dave has not properly "developed" WCS, Justin Jackson, and Giles.

Justin Jackson basically sucks. There just isn't much to develop with Justin. He wasn't a good draft pick plain and simple. His future at best is a 8th or 9th man end of the rotation guy. Justin's niche in the league is to basically play some defense and hit wide open 3's. Problem is his defense is nothing special and he has an almost uncanny knack for missing wide open 3's (especially big ones needed for momentum).

As for Cauley-Stein I think that Dave has developed him about as much as he could. What can you really do with a guy who has an inconsistent motor and an aloof personality. I don't think that yelling/screaming at Willie would work. I don't think that trashing him in the media (like George Karl) would work either. Willie is a weird dude and he's always going to leave you wanting more but we're just not going to get it.

I think he's developed Harry Giles just fine. Maybe a little slower than we all liked (which may be on all of us more than Joerger) but the key is that Harry is in fact developing and continuing to get better. With that said I hope and assume that Giles would see increased minutes in these closing games. With 10-12 games to go when the Kings are essentially mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, Giles needs to play 28-30 mins a game.

Finally you also mentioned Bogi who is old enough and has been playing as a pro long enough that he is mostly already developed. I'm not sure how to explain Bogi's regression and turning into a reckless chucker this year. Maybe Dave does shoulder some blame for allowing Bogi to play like that essentially all season.

I think Dave does know that Bogi is a highly skilled high IQ player......and as such he then gave Bogi a lot more freedom.....who then took that freedom and decided to start playing like an idiot. It's a catch 22.

 

[sactowndog]

How in Gods name is the development of Giles at all troubling?!

In my opinion, Giles has not progressed much in his shooting. WCS has regressed in his shooting. I find this concerning.

 

[VF21]

I’m scared.

This all has a deja vu feel to me. I remember when people would chatter about Adelman’s deficiencies and suggest moving on, and I never thought it could happen because the world isn’t stupid. But it did.

Then after it seemed like years of basketball hell were over, I remember chatter about Malone’s deficiencies and suggestions that we move on, and I never thought it could happen because the world isn’t stupid. But it did.

Please world, don’t be stupid for a third time.

Adelman's contract was not renewed by the Maloofs for reasons that became apparent after the fact. Malone was a victim of PDA. I don't see it happening now.

 

[Section 101]

In my opinion, Giles has not progressed much in his shooting. WCS has regressed in his shooting. I find this concerning.

Shooting is mostly off season work.

 

[km23]

Adelman's contract was not renewed by the Maloofs for reasons that became apparent after the fact. Malone was a victim of PDA. I don't see it happening now.

This times 100. If we go separate ways it The Joegs, I fear it's the wrong direction.

 

[John Galt]

Adelman's contract was not renewed by the Maloofs for reasons that became apparent after the fact. Malone was a victim of PDA. I don't see it happening now.

I don't disagree - I don't think - but what were the reasons that became apparent after the fact? I thought it was simply that they grew weary of having a non asskisser in the role. Was it something more legit than that?

 

[Sac.1989]

OK, so you went with the I'm an idiot option since it's clear as day given the facts. The real question, in my mind, is whether or not any of your "facts" are actually true. You're stating speculations as if they were fact. 'Joerger doesn't ...', 'Joerger believes ...", "The coaching staff were incredibly irked". Oh really? Do you attend staff meetings, sit in on practices, is Joerger your buddy and just calls you once in a while for the heck of it? Is that how you know so much? And if you don't have first-hand information, you're relying on information from someone else. Plus -- and this is really important -- how much of this was once a problem but is no longer a problem? The best organizations keep a tight ship about stuff like this, so it may be that anyone else who claims to know what's going on inside the organization right now, in fact is only speculating.

Plus, you still haven't answered the question as to why, in the midst of an unexpectedly great season, this matters at all.

At no point did i state you were an idiot or anything of the sort. I respect your line of questioning and statements.

You are of course open to refute the facts i have laid to bare. I have established them as real but acknowledge that all may not see them in the same vain.

I am not stating facts and manipulating the truth by being creative in my accounts. The fact is that Joerger asked Williams not to attend practice, that just didnt happen for no reason. Following that, it was widely reported by reputable sources that the coaching staff, who have a strong loyalty to Joerger were indeed irked that Williams was involved in communicating their extensions. Again this didnt happen for no reason.

This season has been great but as it draws to a close we need to look to the future. With Joerger a key piece of that and his contractual status up in the air, it is a factor we need to address to ensure the long term positive trajectory of this franchise continues. As i have previously stated Vlade may decide its a non issue and that as grown men everyone can move on and keep things professional. Joerger may see things differently and demand Williams and he never cross paths again as part of his negotiations. These are factors we as fans need to be prepared for.

 

[macadocious]

What is it about the Sixers trade and/or Cousins that can be held against him? Is it mitigating that the Sixers trade DID NOT HURT US or they the Cousins deal catapulted us from Dregs of the West to Playoff Bubble?
Someone gonna fire Vlade for the Bagley pick after the way the season played out and the upside evident with Bagley??

What
The
Eff
Is
Going
On
Here???

You and I have talked about this numerous times. We disagree vehemently on the Phili trade. It may not end up biting us in the ass (still to be determined) but we cannot turn a blind eye and say there was nothing wrong with it.

I believe they were taking Fox at 3 or 5, but we could have also possibly traded for Fultz, so....

This years pick should be 13 or 14-16 if some miracle happens. But, it still could be top 4. There is a chance at that. Not having a #1 this year prevents current and future trades that we don't know could be a possibility if we had it.

All that being said, I view Vlade in two frames for my own well being. Pre DMC trade and DMC trade and beyond. Pre DMC trade he was easily, if not the worst GM in the league. DMC trade and beyond, he at worst middle group and at best trending top 10.

I still think passing on Luka was a mistake, I also believe Bagley has the 2nd highest ceiling in this draft. So I'm not going to kill him over that. It may also end up being the right decision for THIS team.


------

Now, on to Joerger. I don't get the bitching, at all. Just like I didn't get it with Adelman. Who are the Kings going to hire that will guaranteed be better than what Joerger is right now? To keep this easy I will just focus on current head coaches.

Here who I think are currently better coaches than Joerger (marginally so btw) - Also, I am omitting Popovich because he's retiring soon.

Kerr
Stevens
Spolestra
Snyder
Budenholzer
Doc Rivers (begrudgingly)

Here are his equals

Malone
Stotts
Brown
Fizzdale


Unkowns

Nurse
Peirce
Walton
Atkinson
Borrego
Kokoskov


I left off D'Antonio because I honestly have no idea with him. He's an enigma.

Carlisle I think was better, but no longer


So which of those guys are we getting that are going to improve this team, without BTW, crushing morale. I have seen nothing to point to any sorta of disconnect between players and coaches. Those little spats that popped up recently are heat of the moment things between ultra competitive people. I also thing Joerger is in the top 5 in the NBA in work ethic and "hate to lose more than love to win" category.

So why are we dismissing this guy? Rotations? Because Willie isn't a top defender, because JJ didn't become a star? I think there are other reasons for those things guys, it's not on Joerger or the staff.

 

[John Galt]

You and I have talked about this numerous times. We disagree vehemently on the Phili trade. It may not end up biting us in the ass (still to be determined) but we cannot turn a blind eye and say there was nothing wrong with it.

That's fine to disagree vehemently. I think there was nothing wrong with it and thought so at the time. No need to re-litigate the whole thing but the sky is falling crowd looks like they were beating at air the whole time.

It was a tactical gamble that didn't work as planned (win now with DeMarcus), but didn't hurt either (team got good by 2019 as planned, just via a different path) - and holding it over Vlade's head as part of his evaluation now is only for people who have it in for him on some other level.

Onward.

 

[macadocious]

That's fine to disagree vehemently. I think there was nothing wrong with it and thought so at the time. No need to re-litigate the whole thing but the sky is falling crowd looks like they were beating at air the whole time.

It was a tactical gamble that didn't work as planned (win now with DeMarcus), but didn't hurt either (team got good by 2019 as planned, just via a different path) - and holding it over Vlade's head as part of his evaluation now is only for people who have it in for him on some other level.

Onward.

Sure, what I am trying to get at is we can change our minds on our evaluation as time goes on. Also, people learn and get better.

Amick has recently stated in interviews that Vlade has owned his past mistakes, and thinks he's learned and is moving forward. He also joked that Vlade plays up the dumb European thing quite a bit to get leverage.

 

[Kingsfan23]

How in Gods name is the development of Giles at all troubling?!

Maybe in comparison to the hype, which might be originally unfair to Harry. But Harry needs to protect the paint. No layups, no not getting the defensive board, no flat feet, no automatic fouling. Needs to develop physically to not get bodied, which he should given how young he is. He’s shown offensive skill for 20 though

 

[VF21]

I don't disagree - I don't think - but what were the reasons that became apparent after the fact? I thought it was simply that they grew weary of having a non asskisser in the role. Was it something more legit than that?

Remember "Major League"?

 

[63royals]

At no point did i state you were an idiot or anything of the sort. I respect your line of questioning and statements.

You are of course open to refute the facts i have laid to bare. I have established them as real but acknowledge that all may not see them in the same vain.

I am not stating facts and manipulating the truth by being creative in my accounts. The fact is that Joerger asked Williams not to attend practice, that just didnt happen for no reason. Following that, it was widely reported by reputable sources that the coaching staff, who have a strong loyalty to Joerger were indeed irked that Williams was involved in communicating their extensions. Again this didnt happen for no reason.

This season has been great but as it draws to a close we need to look to the future. With Joerger a key piece of that and his contractual status up in the air, it is a factor we need to address to ensure the long term positive trajectory of this franchise continues. As i have previously stated Vlade may decide its a non issue and that as grown men everyone can move on and keep things professional. Joerger may see things differently and demand Williams and he never cross paths again as part of his negotiations. These are factors we as fans need to be prepared for.

Facts? What I've heard mostly is that it's obvious. That's not facts.

I'm quite sure that Joerger asked Williams not to attend practice. That's a fact. How long ago did that happen? Was anything done behind closed doors to nip that in the bud, or was it left to develop like a festering wound? If it was taken care of behind closed doors, neither one of us knows what actually happened. The only difference between us is that you think you do.

I've seen quite a few things on the Internet that start with a fact and add some speculation about what's going on now. After it's been passed around social media for a while, the whole thing becomes a fact in many peoples' minds. This sounds to me like one of those. Other than the fact that Williams was banned from practice I'm not hearing any first-hand information from you. If the Joerger-Williams thing is still a problem, obviously that matters a lot when looking at the team's future. If it's already been dealt with behind closed doors, it couldn't be less important.

Just because backstabbing intrigue is much more interesting than nothing going on, that doesn't mean that boring is always wrong.

 

[Sac.1989]

I'm quite sure that Joerger asked Williams not to attend practice. That's a fact. How long ago did that happen? Was anything done behind closed doors to nip that in the bud, or was it left to develop like a festering wound? If it was taken care of behind closed doors, neither one of us knows what actually happened. The only difference between us is that you think you do.
.

Im not sitting here acting like i know. Vlade issued a statement following the media reports surrounding Joerger and Williams stating that he asked FO and Coaching to put the issues behind them and focus on the team. It could have been dealt with further and ideally it has had been but if it had been then why the reaction from the Assistant Coaches when Williams was involved in their contract extensions ? It doesn't appear that it was dealt with at that point based on their reaction.

If the Joerger-Williams thing is still a problem, obviously that matters a lot when looking at the team's future. If it's already been dealt with behind closed doors, it couldn't be less important.
.

Yes i agree. Vlade has the capabilities to deal with it and if he hasnt i am sure he will in the summer, in part because its good business to ensure all are on the same page and in part also because because of the contractual status of Joerger.

 

[kingsboi]

You and I have talked about this numerous times. We disagree vehemently on the Phili trade. It may not end up biting us in the ass (still to be determined) but we cannot turn a blind eye and say there was nothing wrong with it.

I believe they were taking Fox at 3 or 5, but we could have also possibly traded for Fultz, so....

This years pick should be 13 or 14-16 if some miracle happens. But, it still could be top 4. There is a chance at that. Not having a #1 this year prevents current and future trades that we don't know could be a possibility if we had it.

All that being said, I view Vlade in two frames for my own well being. Pre DMC trade and DMC trade and beyond. Pre DMC trade he was easily, if not the worst GM in the league. DMC trade and beyond, he at worst middle group and at best trending top 10.

I still think passing on Luka was a mistake, I also believe Bagley has the 2nd highest ceiling in this draft. So I'm not going to kill him over that. It may also end up being the right decision for THIS team.


------

Now, on to Joerger. I don't get the bitching, at all. Just like I didn't get it with Adelman. Who are the Kings going to hire that will guaranteed be better than what Joerger is right now? To keep this easy I will just focus on current head coaches.

Here who I think are currently better coaches than Joerger (marginally so btw) - Also, I am omitting Popovich because he's retiring soon.

Kerr
Stevens
Spolestra
Snyder
Budenholzer
Doc Rivers (begrudgingly)

Here are his equals

Malone
Stotts
Brown
Fizzdale


Unkowns

Nurse
Peirce
Walton
Atkinson
Borrego
Kokoskov


I left off D'Antonio because I honestly have no idea with him. He's an enigma.


Carlisle I think was better, but no longer


So which of those guys are we getting that are going to improve this team, without BTW, crushing morale. I have seen nothing to point to any sorta of disconnect between players and coaches. Those little spats that popped up recently are heat of the moment things between ultra competitive people. I also thing Joerger is in the top 5 in the NBA in work ethic and "hate to lose more than love to win" category.

So why are we dismissing this guy? Rotations? Because Willie isn't a top defender, because JJ didn't become a star? I think there are other reasons for those things guys, it's not on Joerger or the staff.

what about McMillan and Brooks?

 

[SLAB]

Maybe in comparison to the hype, which might be originally unfair to Harry. But Harry needs to protect the paint. No layups, no not getting the defensive board, no flat feet, no automatic fouling. Needs to develop physically to not get bodied, which he should given how young he is. He’s shown offensive skill for 20 though

For sure. He’s already gotten better with the fouling (compared to early season Giles it’s night/day minus two or three stinkers where he reverted back) and other stuff I still think is timing and trusting his body. He’ll get there.

It’s going to be very interesting to see how he comes in next season when he gets to work on his whole body for an offseason as opposed to worrying about those knees. The one thing he can learn from our old friend Skal is how to get jacked. Dude went from a stick to built.

 

[Kingsfan23]

For sure. He’s already gotten better with the fouling (compared to early season Giles it’s night/day minus two or three stinkers where he reverted back) and other stuff I still think is timing and trusting his body. He’ll get there.

It’s going to be very interesting to see how he comes in next season when he gets to work on his whole body for an offseason as opposed to worrying about those knees. The one thing he can learn from our old friend Skal is how to get jacked. Dude went from a stick to built.

Would be nice to see him build up, for sure

 

[macadocious]

what about McMillan and Brooks?

Everyone not named I think he’s better than