Willie Cauley-Stein: the 2018-19 Season watch

N

Nokidding

Bench
#451
#451
The_Jamal said:
This hasn't been a question for the last season and a half. He was a lower tier starting center last year for sure, but he was certainly a top 30 C. This year, he's probably in the 15-18 range. In no order:

Worse than:

Jokic
AD
Drummond
Horford
Embiid
KAT
Vuc
Gobert
Capela
Marc Gasol
Nurkic
Adams
Sabonis

Debatable:
Kanter
Jordan
Ibaka
Harrell

The real question is if he doesn't raise his play to possibly be in a top 10 C and basically is what he is now for the duration of his contract, is he worth a $20 mil/season deal? Have to consider how difficult it is to get FA talent here as well; getting a top 15, 25 year old center entering his prime is next to impossible for a team like us.
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Also Debatable and some probably he's worse than only reason I guess they might not be on the list is cause of minor/major injury this year
Whiteside
McGee (impact this season on Lakers with shot blocking/rim running)
Tristian Thompson
Mylers Turner (shot blocking like crazy lately)
Jonas Val (as a starter put up solid numbers)
Dwight Howard (even with the injuries/age is still a force)
LMA (plays C)
Tristian Thompson (super defender rebounder)
Cousins (injury)
 
J

JCTNKINGFAN

Bench
#453
#453
Here's the thing, Kings may not make the playoffs with Willie, but they will not make the playoffs without him. Despite all the hype over Bagley and Giles, and Bagley looks really good, neither is ready to step into Willie's role. Even the addition of an Otto Porter (who I am not enamored with) would probably not offset the loss of Willie to this team, this year, the way it has been constructed. Just MHO.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#454
#454
itzcoatl said:
Without thinking about it. That's great value for WCS
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It's absurdly unrealistic value tbh. he's going to hit the market this summer guys.... that means it only takes one team to put in a high bid.... if u really think every NBA team would look at willie and say "I'll bid no higher than $12MM per season" you're completely whacked out of your head.

The absolute bare-minumum for his services will start at $18MM per season...... The bid is going to run up into the 20's for sure, $22MM or $24MM per is much more realistic..... and then the Kings are gonna immediately match... end of story..
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#456
#456
The_Jamal said:
This hasn't been a question for the last season and a half. He was a lower tier starting center last year for sure, but he was certainly a top 30 C. This year, he's probably in the 15-18 range. In no order:

Worse than:

Jokic
AD
Drummond
Horford
Embiid
KAT
Vuc
Gobert
Capela
Marc Gasol
Nurkic
Adams
Sabonis

Debatable:
Kanter
Jordan
Ibaka
Harrell

The real question is if he doesn't raise his play to possibly be in a top 10 C and basically is what he is now for the duration of his contract, is he worth a $20 mil/season deal? Have to consider how difficult it is to get FA talent here as well; getting a top 15, 25 year old center entering his prime is next to impossible for a team like us.
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Yes, it is relative when evaluating him. I agree you can't evaluate him in a vacuum. Vlade can only decide on what to do with WCS when viewing the alternatives. But WCS's inconsistency is a large factor in the evaluation and in comparing him to other centers. An average is one thing, a standard deviation from the mean is another. WCS has huge swings from the mean and that will be a part of the Vlade calculus, no doubt.
 
Kings_of_California

Kings_of_California

Starter
#457
#457
Ozymandias said:
It's absurdly unrealistic value tbh. he's going to hit the market this summer guys.... that means it only takes one team to put in a high bid.... if u really think every NBA team would look at willie and say "I'll bid no higher than $12MM per season" you're completely whacked out of your head.

The absolute bare-minumum for his services will start at $18MM per season...... The bid is going to run up into the 20's for sure, $22MM or $24MM per is much more realistic..... and then the Kings are gonna immediately match... end of story..
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Yea I agree with this 100%. I don't see any scenario where he isn't offered more than $10MM per year. Even if he doesn't perform that great moving forward. He's a super rare specimen for a Center.

In addition, with the Kings finally garnering some national media attention, WCS and the entire team in general is just a lot more visible. I don't see him sneaking under the radar.
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#458
#458
Kingster said:
Yes, it is relative when evaluating him. I agree you can't evaluate him in a vacuum. Vlade can only decide on what to do with WCS when viewing the alternatives. But WCS's inconsistency is a large factor in the evaluation and in comparing him to other centers. An average is one thing, a standard deviation from the mean is another. WCS has huge swings from the mean and that will be a part of the Vlade calculus, no doubt.
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It's not just his inconsistency, it's his attitude.
 
J

joemama

Starter
#459
#459
Willie is averaging 0.5 blocks a game. That isn't going to cut it for an NBA center. Last year it was 0.9. Even with my not so great math skills I think he is getting less blocks. He can't even get as many blocks as Fox.

So what he has 17 boards, he just gave up 23 to Adams the other night.

Ppl are jumping for joy because he defended well for one half of one game.

ONE HALF OF ONE GAME . . .

Willie is good for 2 things lobs and inconsistent play.

Hes not a good rebounder, hes not a good shot blocker, he does not space the floor, and hes getting worse at free throws
 
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N

notoriousBEN3

Bench
#460
#460
As much as I’m thrilled with how much WCS has clearly helped us win games, I can’t help but be a little concerned about the interior defense. I do think he could be doing better than his is now, and I’m not sure where that needs to come from, but it does seem like a lot of these games would be landslide victories if the 4/5 spots were able to protect the paint.

Willie - if you really want to get paid, which we all know you do, PROTECT THE PAINT!!!

Do what you were drafted to do, and you’ll be worth every penny
 
macadocious

macadocious

Starter
#462
#462
Ozymandias said:
It's absurdly unrealistic value tbh. he's going to hit the market this summer guys.... that means it only takes one team to put in a high bid.... if u really think every NBA team would look at willie and say "I'll bid no higher than $12MM per season" you're completely whacked out of your head.

The absolute bare-minumum for his services will start at $18MM per season...... The bid is going to run up into the 20's for sure, $22MM or $24MM per is much more realistic..... and then the Kings are gonna immediately match... end of story..
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Disagree. We don't know what the org's internal evaluation of willie is. I think the 18MM they would really really have to think hard about it. They are not going into the 20's, not with Bagley and Giles on this team. You cant have 3 high paid big men. Bags will get paid, and Giles is a wait and see.

You also have Buddy extension which will be in the 20+ MM per season. Fox will get the max. We will sign or trade for a SF at some point.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#464
#464
If you guys want to see a big reason why the defense is awful, check out Willie in the first quarter of the Clips game.

He played zero help defense in the paint. Didn't even attempt to help his teammates out if the guy they were guarding tried to drive on them. He was within a step or two of a bunch of those easy lay ins and he just stayed put where he was at and watched them lay it in over and over. It's one thing if a player just isn't talented enough to do it but it's another when you know they're perfectly capable of doing it, yet they just decide not to. On the flip side of things, Harrell, who is 4 inches shorter than Willie, helped his teammates out in the paint any time he had a chance at it and wound up with 5 blocks.

It wasn't until the 2nd half when Willie started playing a little help defense but the damage was already done with that 40pt first quarter.
 
Brent

Brent

Prospect
#465
#465
ESP47 said:
If you guys want to see a big reason why the defense is awful, check out Willie in the first quarter of the Clips game.

He played zero help defense in the paint. Didn't even attempt to help his teammates out if the guy they were guarding tried to drive on them. He was within a step or two of a bunch of those easy lay ins and he just stayed put where he was at and watched them lay it in over and over. It's one thing if a player just isn't talented enough to do it but it's another when you know they're perfectly capable of doing it, yet they just decide not to. On the flip side of things, Harrell, who is 4 inches shorter than Willie, helped his teammates out in the paint any time he had a chance at it and wound up with 5 blocks.

It wasn't until the 2nd half when Willie started playing a little help defense but the damage was already done with that 40pt first quarter.
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What you say makes a lot of sense. Willie came in the league as quoted a defensive player. He hasn't really shown that. He has improved tho and he's doing a decent job of guarding his own man but he's not doing anything in help defense. The numbers are showing that too. He's barely getting any blocks. Willie really needs to step his defensive game up, he has improved a lot on offense but he still isn't near an outstanding offensive player so he must make the difference in defense. If he's not, I don't know if he'll be worth the big contract he will get this offseason.
 
allrightythen

allrightythen

Starter
#466
#466
ESP47 said:
If you guys want to see a big reason why the defense is awful, check out Willie in the first quarter of the Clips game.

He played zero help defense in the paint. Didn't even attempt to help his teammates out if the guy they were guarding tried to drive on them. He was within a step or two of a bunch of those easy lay ins and he just stayed put where he was at and watched them lay it in over and over. It's one thing if a player just isn't talented enough to do it but it's another when you know they're perfectly capable of doing it, yet they just decide not to. On the flip side of things, Harrell, who is 4 inches shorter than Willie, helped his teammates out in the paint any time he had a chance at it and wound up with 5 blocks.

It wasn't until the 2nd half when Willie started playing a little help defense but the damage was already done with that 40pt first quarter.
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This, more than anything, drives me crazy with Willie.
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#467
#467
ESP47 said:
If you guys want to see a big reason why the defense is awful, check out Willie in the first quarter of the Clips game.

He played zero help defense in the paint. Didn't even attempt to help his teammates out if the guy they were guarding tried to drive on them. He was within a step or two of a bunch of those easy lay ins and he just stayed put where he was at and watched them lay it in over and over. It's one thing if a player just isn't talented enough to do it but it's another when you know they're perfectly capable of doing it, yet they just decide not to. On the flip side of things, Harrell, who is 4 inches shorter than Willie, helped his teammates out in the paint any time he had a chance at it and wound up with 5 blocks.

It wasn't until the 2nd half when Willie started playing a little help defense but the damage was already done with that 40pt first quarter.
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Yes. Never seen anything like it. He’s right there. Has to be psychological fear or something

But my opinion is 100% on WCS now. His offensive improvement left the door open a bit, but I’m certain now he will never be servicable in the paint.

If there was a moderately defensive center on the team who played with a moderate energy I’m sure we’d be much better
 
F

Folsomkingsfan

Starter
#471
#471
Willie is 25 years old and is in his 4th season. He is what he is at this point. He'll give you an outstanding offensive performance here and there and then ghost you for a few games. He'll get 2-3 back to back 8+ rebound games then follow those up with a couple 4-6 rebound games. He'll have a 2 steal 2 block game to keep you thinking that maybe one day he could be a great and consistent defender, but then he will play games like yesterday where he won't play any help defense, get abused in the paint, and just generally not try. I'd take a player like Harrell over WCS every day of the week.
 
C

Cojc

Bench
#472
#472
Trade him for Jabari and that would help one position then about any back up center in the league should be able to box out and rebound.

Sorry just frustrated
 
B

burekijogurt

Starter
#473
#473
ESP47 said:
If you guys want to see a big reason why the defense is awful, check out Willie in the first quarter of the Clips game.

He played zero help defense in the paint. Didn't even attempt to help his teammates out if the guy they were guarding tried to drive on them. He was within a step or two of a bunch of those easy lay ins and he just stayed put where he was at and watched them lay it in over and over. It's one thing if a player just isn't talented enough to do it but it's another when you know they're perfectly capable of doing it, yet they just decide not to. On the flip side of things, Harrell, who is 4 inches shorter than Willie, helped his teammates out in the paint any time he had a chance at it and wound up with 5 blocks.

It wasn't until the 2nd half when Willie started playing a little help defense but the damage was already done with that 40pt first quarter.
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I just watched the first quarter paying attention to WCS. the only play that matches this description was at 9:26 with Gilgeous Alexander driving and WCS failing to go up to try to block the shot. To start the game WCS attempts to block a shot on drivig guard but the bucket is scored. next drive he cuts off the driver and they are forced to reset. the next drive is Gilgeous Alexander who WCS trails and covers making him loop and hands hin off to Fox but the bucket is scored on Fox. etc.. he was not a defensive force out there but i did not see a consistent lack of effort. am I wrong? maybe we tend to ignore the good defensive plays by willie that are not blocks and hence visible and apparent?
 
F

Folsomkingsfan

Starter
#474
#474
Cojc said:
Trade him for Jabari and that would help one position then about any back up center in the league should be able to box out and rebound.

Sorry just frustrated
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No way. Parker's career is basically over at this point. He pretty much refuses to play defense and can't hit outside shots. That is in addition to him now having the reputation of being a problem in the locker room and being the leader behind the "we don't want to practice" mutiny that almost took place a few weeks ago. I'd be surprised if any team besides the Spurs wants to roll the dice on this guy right now.
 
N

Nokidding

Bench
#475
#475
ESP47 said:
If you guys want to see a big reason why the defense is awful, check out Willie in the first quarter of the Clips game.

He played zero help defense in the paint. Didn't even attempt to help his teammates out if the guy they were guarding tried to drive on them. He was within a step or two of a bunch of those easy lay ins and he just stayed put where he was at and watched them lay it in over and over. It's one thing if a player just isn't talented enough to do it but it's another when you know they're perfectly capable of doing it, yet they just decide not to. On the flip side of things, Harrell, who is 4 inches shorter than Willie, helped his teammates out in the paint any time he had a chance at it and wound up with 5 blocks.

It wasn't until the 2nd half when Willie started playing a little help defense but the damage was already done with that 40pt first quarter.
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Harrell is also making 6-8 million per season while WCS is asking for a $100+ mil
 
N

Nokidding

Bench
#476
#476
Cojc said:
Trade him for Jabari and that would help one position then about any back up center in the league should be able to box out and rebound.

Sorry just frustrated
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If they throw in Robin Lopez I'm taking it, Lopez can still play and at least tries to fight guys when his team is getting bullied. Lopez/Parker/Holiday for WCS/Z-BO/KK/filler
 
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Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#477
#477
Great article just went up on SactownRoyalty depicting WCS terrible rim protection last night

But it’s been going on all year from my vantage (Fox still has more blocks on the season. What? To go with bad FG rim %)

Center IMO is the most important defensive position. It’s the goalie.

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018...in-is-not-protecting-the-rim-sacramento-kings

That link isnt just bad, its not nba level

Kings are last in the league in opponents points in the paint? Is there a problem?
 
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VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#479
#479
burekijogurt said:
I just watched the first quarter paying attention to WCS. the only play that matches this description was at 9:26 with Gilgeous Alexander driving and WCS failing to go up to try to block the shot. To start the game WCS attempts to block a shot on drivig guard but the bucket is scored. next drive he cuts off the driver and they are forced to reset. the next drive is Gilgeous Alexander who WCS trails and covers making him loop and hands hin off to Fox but the bucket is scored on Fox. etc.. he was not a defensive force out there but i did not see a consistent lack of effort. am I wrong? maybe we tend to ignore the good defensive plays by willie that are not blocks and hence visible and apparent?
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Yep.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#480
#480
Last night against the Clippers, I watched Willie whenever an opposing player drove the lane. Willie rarely ever even attempted to rotate and stop anyone. I said "nice play Willie" at least 4 times sarcastically out loud. He plays like he is afraid that he might run into another player.
 
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