Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)
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You and your merry band of Doncic obsessors continue to think you're in a debate with people who think that Doncic is a bad player. Wrong. I even thought the Kings should have drafted him. The fact is that the Kings did not draft him. I'm more interested in the team we have than the team that might have been. That's what we focused on in all those years when the Kings were miles from relevance. You're entitled to your opinion, but why are you obsessing about this (and, in the process, insulting most of the people on here)?
We could, and we do.
Since the catastrophic board crash in 2004, there have been 5,023 different threads in the NBA forum. This thread is #4 all time in the NBA forum in terms of total comments with (as of now) 546 comments (and two as I was writing this comment!) The only threads that beat it are a 2014 thread following Isaiah Thomas after we traded him (618 comments), a 2005-06 thread on the run-up to the Ron Artest trade (644 comments, though since we were discussing bringing Ron here it probably should have been in the Personnel Moves forum), and a 2011 thread on the NBA lockout (993 comments). Barring the mods closing this thread, I would be shocked if it does not become the #1 commented thread in the NBA forum.
We certainly talk about Luka.
Since the catastrophic board crash in 2004, there have been 5,023 different threads in the NBA forum. This thread is #4 all time in the NBA forum in terms of total comments with (as of now) 546 comments (and two as I was writing this comment!) The only threads that beat it are a 2014 thread following Isaiah Thomas after we traded him (618 comments), a 2005-06 thread on the run-up to the Ron Artest trade (644 comments, though since we were discussing bringing Ron here it probably should have been in the Personnel Moves forum), and a 2011 thread on the NBA lockout (993 comments). Barring the mods closing this thread, I would be shocked if it does not become the #1 commented thread in the NBA forum.
We certainly talk about Luka.
Okay, so a couple of things:
First of All™, it's not a one hundred percent good faith argument to complain about this in the #NBA subfolder. If there were anywhere on KingsFans.com where posters should feel free to discuss Luka Doncic to their heart's content, this would be the place. And, as long as it doesn't bleed into the #KingsRap subfolder, you shouldn't care if people are "obsessing" about him. As a 'mildly interested' third party observer, I don't understand why people who just want to move on from the pick even keep coming back to this thread, in the first place.
Having said that...
... Second of All, neither is it a one hundred percent good faith argument to act like all you want to do is talk about Luka Doncic, and be proud of his accomplishments, when stuff like this keeps happening:
These sorts of posts don't come across like they were made by people who 'just' want to support Luka Doncic. They come across like they were made by people who have taken it personally that there are Kings fans who either wanted Bagley over Doncic, or actually wanted Doncic, but have accepted the fact that the team doesn't have Doncic, and want to root for the team that they have, rather than pine over the team that they could have had. And that's fine, if you want to take it personally; that's y'all's business. Just call it what it is, though: y'all are salty, and y'all are going to keep being salty, until...
Personally, I think that people who want to be petty should be allowed to be petty. As long as they're honest about it. It's when people come with all the petty, but want to hide behind some, "No, we're really just supporting our dude!", is when I have to bring out the side eye.
First of All™, it's not a one hundred percent good faith argument to complain about this in the #NBA subfolder. If there were anywhere on KingsFans.com where posters should feel free to discuss Luka Doncic to their heart's content, this would be the place. And, as long as it doesn't bleed into the #KingsRap subfolder, you shouldn't care if people are "obsessing" about him. As a 'mildly interested' third party observer, I don't understand why people who just want to move on from the pick even keep coming back to this thread, in the first place.
Having said that...
... Second of All, neither is it a one hundred percent good faith argument to act like all you want to do is talk about Luka Doncic, and be proud of his accomplishments, when stuff like this keeps happening:
These sorts of posts don't come across like they were made by people who 'just' want to support Luka Doncic. They come across like they were made by people who have taken it personally that there are Kings fans who either wanted Bagley over Doncic, or actually wanted Doncic, but have accepted the fact that the team doesn't have Doncic, and want to root for the team that they have, rather than pine over the team that they could have had. And that's fine, if you want to take it personally; that's y'all's business. Just call it what it is, though: y'all are salty, and y'all are going to keep being salty, until...
Personally, I think that people who want to be petty should be allowed to be petty. As long as they're honest about it. It's when people come with all the petty, but want to hide behind some, "No, we're really just supporting our dude!", is when I have to bring out the side eye.
I'm not a hundred percent positive we had a #PersonnelMoves subfolder prior to the Artest trade. I'm thinking that may have been created later.
EDIT - The Wayback Machine seems to suggest that the #PersonnelMoves folder was created some time between Feb. 1 and Mar. 7, 2006, which was after Artest was traded to Sacramento. I suppose it could have been moved there ex post facto, but... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
EDIT - The Wayback Machine seems to suggest that the #PersonnelMoves folder was created some time between Feb. 1 and Mar. 7, 2006, which was after Artest was traded to Sacramento. I suppose it could have been moved there ex post facto, but... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I can't speak for Hansel, but...
Those posts were in reference to people who were making silly, uneductated posts about why he wouldn't succeed (Euroleague competition, not athletic enough etc), not in reference to the people who simply wanted Bagley over Doncic, or who wanted Doncic but moved past it when we didn't take him. I don't think your critique is 100% in good faith either (even though I actually agree with your points preceding this), as you're suggesting that those are the only two options. There's a third option - people who had absolutely no idea about the level of competition in Europe, or of the significance of what he achieved at his age. I have no sympathy for those posters because those arguments were irrational and deserve to be ridiculed. At least as much as posts on sports forums can deserve to be ridiculed (I agree it would be better to just move on, even when the temptation to point out the obvious is strong).
Doncic wasn't a sure thing, nobody is. I'm not even upset with Bagley, I said prior to the draft he was the only guy I would be OK with taking ahead of Doncic. It's in my post history. And I'm encouraged by what I've seen from him so far. But let's call a spade a spade.
Those posts were in reference to people who were making silly, uneductated posts about why he wouldn't succeed (Euroleague competition, not athletic enough etc), not in reference to the people who simply wanted Bagley over Doncic, or who wanted Doncic but moved past it when we didn't take him. I don't think your critique is 100% in good faith either (even though I actually agree with your points preceding this), as you're suggesting that those are the only two options. There's a third option - people who had absolutely no idea about the level of competition in Europe, or of the significance of what he achieved at his age. I have no sympathy for those posters because those arguments were irrational and deserve to be ridiculed. At least as much as posts on sports forums can deserve to be ridiculed (I agree it would be better to just move on, even when the temptation to point out the obvious is strong).
Doncic wasn't a sure thing, nobody is. I'm not even upset with Bagley, I said prior to the draft he was the only guy I would be OK with taking ahead of Doncic. It's in my post history. And I'm encouraged by what I've seen from him so far. But let's call a spade a spade.
I've taken personally the fact some users judge players without having seen anything from them. Just collecting and posting a bunch of stereotypes... I read about soft euros as well, still (I can easily look for the post, in case it is needed).
In the post you quoted me I was referring to the "he can create separation from the defender just in Europe" analysis.
I made my own mistakes by the way, I sum them up... Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
In the post you quoted me I was referring to the "he can create separation from the defender just in Europe" analysis.
I made my own mistakes by the way, I sum them up... Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I can't stipulate to your proposed third option, because I don't agree that there is anyone who could be so described that wouldn't fall under the first option. Like, what would a post look like from somebody who disrespected the quality of competition in Europe, but still wanted Doncic over Bagley, anyway? I suppose there could still be a third option, but those two things overlap to me.
We make no demands for sympathy. As I said before, I am here for the petty; I just want people to be upfront about it, and I don't think that people are.
We make no demands for sympathy. As I said before, I am here for the petty; I just want people to be upfront about it, and I don't think that people are.
How does that contradict my observation, though? I summarized such people as those who wanted Bagley over Doncic. Why they wanted Bagley over Doncic is incidental to that observation.
I'll stipulate to everything you said in the post I just quoted, but it still all boils down to "They didn't want Doncic." If it had more to do with taking offense at stereotypes about European players, I feel like that could be better expressed, without using Luka Doncic as a proxy.
I'll stipulate to everything you said in the post I just quoted, but it still all boils down to "They didn't want Doncic." If it had more to do with taking offense at stereotypes about European players, I feel like that could be better expressed, without using Luka Doncic as a proxy.
There is some overlap, but that doesn't mean that everyone who wanted Bagely over Doncic had equally valid arguments for their opinion, that's the point. Someone who thought Bagley had more upside, for example, may have had a valid point (we don't know yet). Someone who wanted that because they thought Doncic played against poor competition should not have had their opinions taken seriously, given that Doncic played against superior competition. I get that there's overlap, but that hardly equates to all arguments being equal or valid.
Again I can't speak for Hansel, but I don't believe that's true. I don't think the comments you quoted were made simply due to posters wanting Bagley over Doncic. They were due to ridiculous, uneducated arguments being put forward. Not everyone who preferred Bagley put forward those same uneducated arguments. I don't think you get to decide Hansel's motivations for those comments, and he has explained it pretty reasonably. Doncic is the example being used because it's a thread about him, but the same argument does apply to the criticisms often levelled at European prospects.
Again I can't speak for Hansel, but I don't believe that's true. I don't think the comments you quoted were made simply due to posters wanting Bagley over Doncic. They were due to ridiculous, uneducated arguments being put forward. Not everyone who preferred Bagley put forward those same uneducated arguments. I don't think you get to decide Hansel's motivations for those comments, and he has explained it pretty reasonably. Doncic is the example being used because it's a thread about him, but the same argument does apply to the criticisms often levelled at European prospects.
Since I made the point about it being 2, perhaps 3 more seasons until it is known one way of the other and that nothing that happens this season means that the marathon has been decided, I’m going to suspend my involvement in this thread with regard to discussing who was the better draft pick for the KINGS.
Up to the moment of the #2 pick and for a few weeks after, I was pro ‘the kid that now plays in Dallas’. But I’ve come to accept and understand the reasoning behind the Bagley selection. I’m now in wait and see mode. But if a few years from now it looks like another Tyreke-Curry situation, I will loudly proclaim “I told you so”. But I really hope to instead say “Vlade and Co. made the right call”.
Up to the moment of the #2 pick and for a few weeks after, I was pro ‘the kid that now plays in Dallas’. But I’ve come to accept and understand the reasoning behind the Bagley selection. I’m now in wait and see mode. But if a few years from now it looks like another Tyreke-Curry situation, I will loudly proclaim “I told you so”. But I really hope to instead say “Vlade and Co. made the right call”.
And how do you reckon that those people managed to evaluate Bagley's upside versus Doncic's, in a manner independent of their opinions of European basketball? That's where the rebuttal doesn't hold up, to me: were they projecting these kids' respective upsides in a vacuum? What were they basing them on? It still comes down to their opinions of European basketball, relative to American basketball, even subconsciously. You don't actually think that those people who thought that Bagley had more upside were objectively comparing their respective upsides based on antiseptic combine numbers, do you?
I see that as a difference that lacks a distinction. Your mileage obviously varies.
I agree that I don't get to decide what @Hansel's motivations are. I just don't think that his explanation contradicts my observation. As to him being reasonable, I never suggested otherwise, but "reasonable" and "clear and forthright" are not really synonyms.
I see that as a difference that lacks a distinction. Your mileage obviously varies.
I agree that I don't get to decide what @Hansel's motivations are. I just don't think that his explanation contradicts my observation. As to him being reasonable, I never suggested otherwise, but "reasonable" and "clear and forthright" are not really synonyms.
We are going around in circles, and this seems to be a somewhat pedantic argument, so it will be my last post in relation to this particular discussion. I'll keep it short. Someone who preferred Bagley due to his size, athleticism, youth, skillset for this particular Kings team is making a more valid argument than someone who only preferred him because they believe Doncic was playing against bad competition, can't get by his man, not athletic enough etc etc etc. That's it in a nutshell. The latter people made bad arguments. The former may not have.
Its pretty simple.
- Fox is better than Doncic, hence why they passed on him. Vlade isnt trying to add additional ball handlers and playmakers beyond what we have already. That is not his vision. He simply asked himself, who will burn brighter as this teams primary ball handler and playmaker and it was Fox over Doncic. He is all in for Fox and ill say it again, Fox is better and will be better then Doncic as a primary playmaker. Could they play together, absolutely, but Vlade doesnt feel a Doncic Fox combo is greater than a Bagley Fox combo and that is basically why we are here.
- Bogdan is giving us a similar output level to what Doncic offers currently with more efficiency. Offensively he is not Doncic but that isnt an issue. He offers the execution and playmaking that those who wanted Doncic pine for rendering some of Doncic's skills as already replicated in our current rotation.
- Bagley will be a star and is a great fit next to Fox as the future of this franchise. When those two hit their peak in 5 years, we will be contending. Fox has been compared to John Wall and Bagley to Chris Bosh. Both will surpass these comparisons
- Fox is better than Doncic, hence why they passed on him. Vlade isnt trying to add additional ball handlers and playmakers beyond what we have already. That is not his vision. He simply asked himself, who will burn brighter as this teams primary ball handler and playmaker and it was Fox over Doncic. He is all in for Fox and ill say it again, Fox is better and will be better then Doncic as a primary playmaker. Could they play together, absolutely, but Vlade doesnt feel a Doncic Fox combo is greater than a Bagley Fox combo and that is basically why we are here.
- Bogdan is giving us a similar output level to what Doncic offers currently with more efficiency. Offensively he is not Doncic but that isnt an issue. He offers the execution and playmaking that those who wanted Doncic pine for rendering some of Doncic's skills as already replicated in our current rotation.
- Bagley will be a star and is a great fit next to Fox as the future of this franchise. When those two hit their peak in 5 years, we will be contending. Fox has been compared to John Wall and Bagley to Chris Bosh. Both will surpass these comparisons
Yes, i can see your point. However Vlade would probably argue with you that Bogie isnt elite. In his current role as 6th man he is arguably one of the best executors in the League with an immense level of IQ.
I think it really comes down to the fact that Vlade doesnt care for additional ball handlers and playmakers. He isnt looking to add there nor will he.
I think it really comes down to the fact that Vlade doesnt care for additional ball handlers and playmakers. He isnt looking to add there nor will he.
Yeah its odd but i stand by my point, i dont think Vlade's blueprint for us is heavily focused on having multiple playmakers. If anyone knew the skills Doncic had, it was Vlade and he passed on him without blinking.
Furthermore, If anyone knew the power of playing in a lineup with multiple playmakers it was Vlade but again he passed on Doncic without blinking all in favor of athleticism, endless motor and perceived versatility.
There was no one more qualified to draft Doncic then Vlade. But he didnt. It is clear we are not following the NBA notion of building a squad around multiple playmakers but writing our own ethos, central to which is pace, defensive effort and athleticism.
Furthermore, If anyone knew the power of playing in a lineup with multiple playmakers it was Vlade but again he passed on Doncic without blinking all in favor of athleticism, endless motor and perceived versatility.
There was no one more qualified to draft Doncic then Vlade. But he didnt. It is clear we are not following the NBA notion of building a squad around multiple playmakers but writing our own ethos, central to which is pace, defensive effort and athleticism.
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Bagley is playing better as the season goes. It’s encouraging what he’s showing.
It’s just going to be very hard for him to match what Luka looks to be.. and therefore that shadow will always exist
But Marvin continuing to evolve, and still looking to be in play as one of the top non-Luka picks will at least slow the pace of the thread
It’s just going to be very hard for him to match what Luka looks to be.. and therefore that shadow will always exist
But Marvin continuing to evolve, and still looking to be in play as one of the top non-Luka picks will at least slow the pace of the thread
CD asked Sam Amick why bagley isn’t getting the hype of Luka. Especially considering lukas minutes as opposed to bagleys. Dave put out bagleys numbers compared to lukas. Amick to Dave: “really Dave? Cmon. You know the answer. I’m not one to usually bring up the eye test but with Luka, you watch him and you know why he is so so good.”
Amick then went into why Luka is the better player. He’s the center piece. He has single handedly changed the atmosphere in Dallas. He is a game changer. Then why bagley isn’t like Luka. He’s a big man and that’s not today’s NBA game. Bagley is an old school type player.
All of this was brought up because Amick was at the warriors game last night and he and a colleague were talking about the kings and his colleague, forgive me, I don’t remember his name, mentioned to Amick that he would have loved to see what this kings team would be like with Luka on it. Amick asked if fox would have Made his jump with Luka and could they have existed on the same team. And emphatic yes and yes from his colleague. You don’t pass on a talent like Luka because you have fox.
Amick then went into why Luka is the better player. He’s the center piece. He has single handedly changed the atmosphere in Dallas. He is a game changer. Then why bagley isn’t like Luka. He’s a big man and that’s not today’s NBA game. Bagley is an old school type player.
All of this was brought up because Amick was at the warriors game last night and he and a colleague were talking about the kings and his colleague, forgive me, I don’t remember his name, mentioned to Amick that he would have loved to see what this kings team would be like with Luka on it. Amick asked if fox would have Made his jump with Luka and could they have existed on the same team. And emphatic yes and yes from his colleague. You don’t pass on a talent like Luka because you have fox.
Luka is one of those talents that is so seductive to the eyes. He brings the highlights. He's got the wow factor in spades. But he hasn't been particularly efficient this season, he's been an unwieldy sieve on the defensive end, and those that believe he's single-handedly changed the atmosphere in Dallas aren't really paying attention to the veteran factors that are actually leading to that team's success. Their bench unit has massively outperformed their starting unit for much of the season, and their team defense has been surprisingly stout. They also sport the third-easiest strength of schedule to this point in the season, and have been absolutely putrid on the road in spite of it. In other words, I can't help but wonder if Doncic and the Mavs aren't headed in the direction of a brick wall.
Now, don't get me wrong. Doncic is going to be good. He may even be great someday. He's got a James Harden-esque game and the modern NBA is designed specifically for players like that to succeed. But I think Luka's hype train is a little bit off the rails in terms of evaluating his impact this season. He's posting a barely-above-average PER of 15.9, and he's having to work hard as a scorer and playmaker due to his lack of athleticism. Hell, I manage to get exhausted just watching the guy try to create space in isolation. What happens when defenses adapt to his tendencies?
Perhaps the caution I'm exercising in my evaluation of both Luka and the Mavs is unwarranted. Perhaps they'll remain in the playoff mix deep into April, and perhaps Doncic will coast to ROY honors. But I remain skeptical. I will be curious to see if the Mavs can sustain their success as their schedule gets tougher, and I will be curious to see how teams key in on Luka (and his stepback 3, in particular) after they've played Dallas once or twice, and as they continue to scout his weaknesses. I think Doncic is a future all-star, but I also think that the hype is out of control relative to what the player is actually producing, once we move beyond the highlight reel.
Now, don't get me wrong. Doncic is going to be good. He may even be great someday. He's got a James Harden-esque game and the modern NBA is designed specifically for players like that to succeed. But I think Luka's hype train is a little bit off the rails in terms of evaluating his impact this season. He's posting a barely-above-average PER of 15.9, and he's having to work hard as a scorer and playmaker due to his lack of athleticism. Hell, I manage to get exhausted just watching the guy try to create space in isolation. What happens when defenses adapt to his tendencies?
Perhaps the caution I'm exercising in my evaluation of both Luka and the Mavs is unwarranted. Perhaps they'll remain in the playoff mix deep into April, and perhaps Doncic will coast to ROY honors. But I remain skeptical. I will be curious to see if the Mavs can sustain their success as their schedule gets tougher, and I will be curious to see how teams key in on Luka (and his stepback 3, in particular) after they've played Dallas once or twice, and as they continue to scout his weaknesses. I think Doncic is a future all-star, but I also think that the hype is out of control relative to what the player is actually producing, once we move beyond the highlight reel.
The raw statline has been impressive, but the hype suggests rookie Lebron James while the advanced stats suggest something closer to rookie Tyreke Evans. Again, I expect Doncic to be really good, and I certainly expect his trajectory to rise where Evans' only stagnated. I'm not among the haters at all. I like Luka a lot, and I was quite torn between Bagley and Doncic on draft day. But I'm also not going to be seduced by his highlight reels or by the Mavs' cushy schedule. Doncic is an effective playmaker and has great command of the game for a 19-year-old, but he's been largely inefficient and Rick Carlisle is doing his damndest to hide Doncic everywhere he can on defense. The lack of athleticism is as-advertised. He's slow. He can't keep up with NBA-level talent on defense. And on offense, he's got to find more ways to get to the rim in order to be great. For all of his craftiness above the break, he struggles to penetrate, which is an essential skill for playmakers in the modern NBA.
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