Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)
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The per 36 numbers show that scoring output is similar, and the positions/bodies show where they make their other impact.
I still maintain the decision to go for Bagley over Luka had everything to do with Fox and Bogie and the hole at PF. Bagley will be the starting PF within 20 more games. Hes just too good not to be. And matchups will dictate that you need his lateral quickness and jumping ability alongside Willie's slow rotations to matchup. Bjelica was a winning version of George Hill coming in to ease the transition for Bagley. Eventually he will go to the bench and be a backup, which is not a demotion but a natural progression.
If any teams should be litigating and relitigsting this draft it should be Phoenix and Atlanta. They both could have used Luka FAR more than the Kings. Luka would have created a problem here in Sac where one of Bogie or Fox would need to be traded for someone who probably didnt want to be here (Butler/Kawhi/Fultz et al) and/or we would have sold pennies on the dollar for Fox knowing what we do now.
I am happy where the team is in their development. Still dont get the 'what if' issues being driven by this thread. NO ONE thought the Kings would be over .500 in December this year and looking for all intents and purposes like a legit up and coming squad (except maybe the coaching staff and front office sans William's *fire him*). What's wrong with enjoying the hand we were dealt while pushing our chips into the table?
And Luka looked like crap tonight FWIW. Julius Randle ate him alive. My guess? Athletic forwards are going to turn him into birds nest soup.
I still maintain the decision to go for Bagley over Luka had everything to do with Fox and Bogie and the hole at PF. Bagley will be the starting PF within 20 more games. Hes just too good not to be. And matchups will dictate that you need his lateral quickness and jumping ability alongside Willie's slow rotations to matchup. Bjelica was a winning version of George Hill coming in to ease the transition for Bagley. Eventually he will go to the bench and be a backup, which is not a demotion but a natural progression.
If any teams should be litigating and relitigsting this draft it should be Phoenix and Atlanta. They both could have used Luka FAR more than the Kings. Luka would have created a problem here in Sac where one of Bogie or Fox would need to be traded for someone who probably didnt want to be here (Butler/Kawhi/Fultz et al) and/or we would have sold pennies on the dollar for Fox knowing what we do now.
I am happy where the team is in their development. Still dont get the 'what if' issues being driven by this thread. NO ONE thought the Kings would be over .500 in December this year and looking for all intents and purposes like a legit up and coming squad (except maybe the coaching staff and front office sans William's *fire him*). What's wrong with enjoying the hand we were dealt while pushing our chips into the table?
And Luka looked like crap tonight FWIW. Julius Randle ate him alive. My guess? Athletic forwards are going to turn him into birds nest soup.
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I doubt Luka tops out at where he is at 19 people swear the kid can’t get better. Either way a 18-6-4 player shooting 48/38/77 is a very good player to have if that’s his ceiling. In today’s game playmaking wings are just more valuable than bigs outside of guys like AD/Embiid/Towns.
Yes I feel it’s a mistake to take a player for fit when you’re picking at 2 he’ll top 3. What kind of system are we running that can’t hsve multiple playmakers right now we only have Fox and Bogie. Playmakers are at a premium it’s there too hard to find we almost overpaid for Lsvine for this reason.
Let’s relax on the PER 36 stats (hate that) for a guy trans game plane vs a guy like Bagley who is like the 5th option on a team. There scoring is in no way shape or form similar no matter what that stat shows you. Doncic is running an offense Bagley isn’t.
Yes I feel it’s a mistake to take a player for fit when you’re picking at 2 he’ll top 3. What kind of system are we running that can’t hsve multiple playmakers right now we only have Fox and Bogie. Playmakers are at a premium it’s there too hard to find we almost overpaid for Lsvine for this reason.
Let’s relax on the PER 36 stats (hate that) for a guy trans game plane vs a guy like Bagley who is like the 5th option on a team. There scoring is in no way shape or form similar no matter what that stat shows you. Doncic is running an offense Bagley isn’t.
[QUOTE="Joshoua, post: 1415540
Let’s relax on the PER 36 stats (hate that) for a guy trans game plane vs a guy like Bagley who is like the 5th option on a team. There scoring is in no way shape or form similar no matter what that stat shows you. Doncic is running an offense Bagley isn’t.[/QUOTE]
Luka is also turning the ball over at an astronomical rate without creating a lot of assists so I would hesitate on the "hes running an offense" take.
Also, Bagley is a Pf/C and to MY knowledge there has never been one of those who "ran an offense", their jobs are to grab boards to create more possessions and make it less easy to score at the rim which Bagley is doing a better than advertised job at.
Let’s relax on the PER 36 stats (hate that) for a guy trans game plane vs a guy like Bagley who is like the 5th option on a team. There scoring is in no way shape or form similar no matter what that stat shows you. Doncic is running an offense Bagley isn’t.[/QUOTE]
Luka is also turning the ball over at an astronomical rate without creating a lot of assists so I would hesitate on the "hes running an offense" take.
Also, Bagley is a Pf/C and to MY knowledge there has never been one of those who "ran an offense", their jobs are to grab boards to create more possessions and make it less easy to score at the rim which Bagley is doing a better than advertised job at.
I don't think there is any real issue with additional "playmakers" - again, I wanted Luka in the draft - but the front office apparently felt that Bagley either has a higher ceiling/long term benefit or they felt both players were fairly equal and Bagley filled a bigger hole. You'd have to ask them. It's not like Luka is Lebron and we selected Thomas Robinson instead. Both players are playing well and improving. Is Bagley ready for more minutes? I think so, but the FO is playing it slow. No biggie. He's a rook and he's contributing.
Again, the biggest issue is you (among others) deciding that 1/4 of the way through the rookie season is long enough to make definitive statements on their NBA careers and the success of their respective teams. It's just laughable. And you choose this as your windmill to tilt at. Let's give them 3 years and see what their career arcs really start looking like. They are both playing well and getting better and better with experience.
Again, the biggest issue is you (among others) deciding that 1/4 of the way through the rookie season is long enough to make definitive statements on their NBA careers and the success of their respective teams. It's just laughable. And you choose this as your windmill to tilt at. Let's give them 3 years and see what their career arcs really start looking like. They are both playing well and getting better and better with experience.
I've yet to figure out why this is such a difficult concept for many to grasp. I'm as impatient as anyone I know, and even I understand it!
I think the fact that a select few blow up in YR1 somehow becomes the expectation for all. But I'll raise those people Tyreke Evans. He was ROY in 2009/2010 and looked like the best player in the draft. But how'd that turn out 2 years then 4 years later then today?
Every situation is different. But the odds are that youngins 1-3 years out of HS are going to take some time to develop.
I think the fact that a select few blow up in YR1 somehow becomes the expectation for all. But I'll raise those people Tyreke Evans. He was ROY in 2009/2010 and looked like the best player in the draft. But how'd that turn out 2 years then 4 years later then today?
Every situation is different. But the odds are that youngins 1-3 years out of HS are going to take some time to develop.
Again, on the other hand I consider laughable to judge Doncic for twenty nba regular season games and not for all the rest.
I make it simple, comparing Doncic situation to football (I mean, soccer) because we are talking about an international sport star everybody knows I guess. It's like considering Cristiano Ronaldo a rookie in the italian Serie A. Let's see if he's good... He just played 10/15 matches. That's basically your point translated to basketball.
I make it simple, comparing Doncic situation to football (I mean, soccer) because we are talking about an international sport star everybody knows I guess. It's like considering Cristiano Ronaldo a rookie in the italian Serie A. Let's see if he's good... He just played 10/15 matches. That's basically your point translated to basketball.
This has become one of those Internet debates where it's all about winning the argument. We've all told you that we don't think we're far enough into either career to make definitive decisions. You already think there's plenty of evidence, and you tend to respond to people who disagree with you with ridicule. You're not changing anyone's mind and I can't remember you talking about anything else on this forum. Why don't you find someplace where there are people who actually want to continue to argue about this?
Thanks for suggesting me not to express my opinion on this board.
You don't remember me talking about anything else because you didn't pay attention to opinions different from yours maybe... Or maybe cause I'm not attention seeker.
I'm insisting cause I can't believe people don't see what I see... At the same time I realize if everything had been clear from the beginning for everyone, Van Gogh would have sold some paintings during his life.
You're not spotting an hall of famer in front of your eyes ...
You don't remember me talking about anything else because you didn't pay attention to opinions different from yours maybe... Or maybe cause I'm not attention seeker.
I'm insisting cause I can't believe people don't see what I see... At the same time I realize if everything had been clear from the beginning for everyone, Van Gogh would have sold some paintings during his life.
You're not spotting an hall of famer in front of your eyes ...
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Luka is playing too well
You couldn’t have him already as a borderline all star, leading team to wins, and have the basketball community fawning over him as a franchise prospect
If he were here instead of Bagley the forum would be lit up like a Christmas tree.
He has looked too good of a prospect. You can go on Suns/Hawks forums and see the same discussion (not Grizzlies as Jackson is providing enough as a two way monster)
Luka has looked too good
By the way I don’t haye Bagley I like him just have and had Luka/JJJ over him glad we have him over Ayton I don’t think that guy has a heart.
Having said that people like to act like Luka can’t get better just cause he’s not super athletic of because he played pros before.
Luka will get better as will Bagley but what Luka brings not a lot of players do
Having said that people like to act like Luka can’t get better just cause he’s not super athletic of because he played pros before.
Luka will get better as will Bagley but what Luka brings not a lot of players do
That's the thing. Nobody has judged Doncic yet either. I said let's give them both 3 years and see where they are at. I didn't say only look at Bagley in 3 years, did I? Am I taking crazy pills?
Doncic is playing very well. And he should, as he's been playing professionally for years. He's likely the rookie of the year if the decision was made today. Nobody is knocking that. But 1/4 of a rookie season does not define a career, does it?
Doncic is playing very well. And he should, as he's been playing professionally for years. He's likely the rookie of the year if the decision was made today. Nobody is knocking that. But 1/4 of a rookie season does not define a career, does it?
All of them except for Fox would thrive off the soni doubt that that’s 3 elite shooters 2 being elite playmakers (bogie/Luka). In Dallas Smith is fitting in fine and Luka and him share the ball well if they can fit Fox whose worlds better would fit too. Also the lineup would be Fox-Buddy-Luka-Bjlecia-WCS
2 elite players 3 elite shooters.
2 elite players 3 elite shooters.
Thats a total different read you have on the FO. Is there anything verifiable about the Matina or Bagley/Williams part? Vlade was pictured with the whiteboard with Bagley after Ayton and Doncic third in that Vladfather picture. Why would the assistant GM be making that pick then if he already didn’t have command?
Until further notice I got Vlade making the pick
Your entitled to your view though it’s 180 from mine. I got Vlade on his last legs, and the rumors of the assistant GM accruing more power seemingly in sync
Until further notice I got Vlade making the pick
Your entitled to your view though it’s 180 from mine. I got Vlade on his last legs, and the rumors of the assistant GM accruing more power seemingly in sync
The team is lucky enough to have a good coach and a consensus pick young franchise player on their hands.
Why is there an assistant GM with a power struggle over a coach, other than he wants a new coach for his end? Where else does it happen that assistant GMs have that type of say and aren’t worried about being fired? Why hasn’t he been fired if he’s acting so subversive? Right now, I’m not 100% sure who is answering the phones, and neither are some prominent STR writers
Why is there an assistant GM with a power struggle over a coach, other than he wants a new coach for his end? Where else does it happen that assistant GMs have that type of say and aren’t worried about being fired? Why hasn’t he been fired if he’s acting so subversive? Right now, I’m not 100% sure who is answering the phones, and neither are some prominent STR writers
Lmao what?
23.9% USG (5% decrease from last year)
19.9% TOV (Up 4.9% from last year)
23.1% AST (6.4% decrease from last year)
52.5% TS (Up 5% from last year) Although like Fox, it'd be hard for him to be as bad as he was last year
5.4% TRB (1.6% decrease from last year)
.020 WS/48
11.9 PER
-13 On/Off Net rating
56th in RPM among PG's. Fox is currently 20th
Now still relatively early in the season and DSJ has missed some time. But there's literally nothing here to suggest that DSJ and Doncic are coexisting in the slightest or that Doncic is making him better in some way. Very possible DSJ just sucks, but you can't push your narrative that Doncic is currently coexisting with another high USG ball-handler when DSJ's production has been siphoned across the board.
23.9% USG (5% decrease from last year)
19.9% TOV (Up 4.9% from last year)
23.1% AST (6.4% decrease from last year)
52.5% TS (Up 5% from last year) Although like Fox, it'd be hard for him to be as bad as he was last year
5.4% TRB (1.6% decrease from last year)
.020 WS/48
11.9 PER
-13 On/Off Net rating
56th in RPM among PG's. Fox is currently 20th
Now still relatively early in the season and DSJ has missed some time. But there's literally nothing here to suggest that DSJ and Doncic are coexisting in the slightest or that Doncic is making him better in some way. Very possible DSJ just sucks, but you can't push your narrative that Doncic is currently coexisting with another high USG ball-handler when DSJ's production has been siphoned across the board.
Winning basketball at HOME. Not so good on the road.
Also, more credit needs to be given to some of the other Mavs players, as Luka came into to a pretty decent situation with Harrison Barnes, DeAndre Jordan, Wes Matthews, and Dennis Smith Jr. That's 1 all-star, 1st team all defensive player, two above average starters and one of the top rookies from 2017. That lineup just won a game (w/o Dončić) over the the Clippers to knock them out of 2nd place.
As good as Luka has been so far, it could easily be argued that the biggest reason for the Mavs improvement is DeAndre Jordan. So let's not give Luka too much credit. As much as I like him, the Mavs turnaround has been much more than him.
BTW, if Dallas doesn't start winning on the road, they may not be playing winning basketball for long.
Also, more credit needs to be given to some of the other Mavs players, as Luka came into to a pretty decent situation with Harrison Barnes, DeAndre Jordan, Wes Matthews, and Dennis Smith Jr. That's 1 all-star, 1st team all defensive player, two above average starters and one of the top rookies from 2017. That lineup just won a game (w/o Dončić) over the the Clippers to knock them out of 2nd place.
As good as Luka has been so far, it could easily be argued that the biggest reason for the Mavs improvement is DeAndre Jordan. So let's not give Luka too much credit. As much as I like him, the Mavs turnaround has been much more than him.
BTW, if Dallas doesn't start winning on the road, they may not be playing winning basketball for long.
Come on man let’s not describe players off reputation there’s no all star or 1st team all defense player on that team.
That’s my bad I meant more in the style of play DSJ usage rate is similar too Fox usage. Which would allow fox to more than likely still be what he is now as Doncic. Now Smith being a good player is another story
That’s my bad I meant more in the style of play DSJ usage rate is similar too Fox usage. Which would allow fox to more than likely still be what he is now as Doncic. Now Smith being a good player is another story
This thread is funny to me. There's a group of people who keep talking about how stupid and pointless this topic is yet they just cannot seem to leave this thread alone.
If you don't want to talk about Luka, then just skip over the thread and let the Luka fans talk Luka. The arguments to try and diminish what he has accomplished are laughable. I've heard it all in here from he's near his ceiling aready to he has a huge leg up on everyone due to playing in the euroleague. People are searching for anything they can to justify not taking Luka. People are picking rookie of the year outliers from 8 to 9 years ago to justify why Luka's exceptional rookie season is just smoke and mirrors. Apparently only one ball handler is allowed per team now. What other off the wall reasons are people going to come up with? This kid is 19 and playing at a high level already. What's the problem?
If you don't want to talk about Luka, then just skip over the thread and let the Luka fans talk Luka. The arguments to try and diminish what he has accomplished are laughable. I've heard it all in here from he's near his ceiling aready to he has a huge leg up on everyone due to playing in the euroleague. People are searching for anything they can to justify not taking Luka. People are picking rookie of the year outliers from 8 to 9 years ago to justify why Luka's exceptional rookie season is just smoke and mirrors. Apparently only one ball handler is allowed per team now. What other off the wall reasons are people going to come up with? This kid is 19 and playing at a high level already. What's the problem?
A. It's not Luka talk (that's the other thread). It's the "let's bash the FO talk" thread.
B. I'm not diminishing his accomplishments.
C. I wanted Luka. But I'm also OK with Bagley and am willing to give the rookies a couple years to develop before we start calling for our FO to be fired because they blew the pick. Both players are playing well and developing.
D. Those who don't learn from history (especially ours!) are doomed to repeat it. It's recent enough everyone remembers and it is also a clear-cut example of why you don't judge a draft after the first 1/4 season or even a whole year or two.
E. There is no problem with Luka or his play. Only with some fans who have apparently lost perspective. At least IMHO.
B. I'm not diminishing his accomplishments.
C. I wanted Luka. But I'm also OK with Bagley and am willing to give the rookies a couple years to develop before we start calling for our FO to be fired because they blew the pick. Both players are playing well and developing.
D. Those who don't learn from history (especially ours!) are doomed to repeat it. It's recent enough everyone remembers and it is also a clear-cut example of why you don't judge a draft after the first 1/4 season or even a whole year or two.
E. There is no problem with Luka or his play. Only with some fans who have apparently lost perspective. At least IMHO.
No one is stating that the rookie of the year is always the best player from the draft. Tyreke is an outlier and an exception, not the norm. For every "Look at Tyreke" point you make, someone can counter that with "Look at Simmons, Towns, Lillard, Irving, Griffin, Durant, Paul, LBJ" etc etc. There's like 4 or 5 really great ROYs for every 1 that didn't turn out all that great. Normally when a player is good as a rookie, they're even better as a vet. Most players don't start out on top and slowly get worse the way Tyreke did for a while.
Luka fans are naturally going to be mad at the front office for not picking him. It's the natural trajectory of the conversation if you wanted Luka in this draft. I don't see why there anyone should be surprised by that.
I don't think our FO should be fired either (except Brandon Williams) but I think they made a mistake with the pick. I don't think they whiffed on the best player and drafted a bust but I think they made a mistake and didn't draft the player that I think will win more games in the future and I'm not basing that off of their rookie year comparisons. I've held that belief since before either one of them stepped onto an NBA court.
Luka fans are naturally going to be mad at the front office for not picking him. It's the natural trajectory of the conversation if you wanted Luka in this draft. I don't see why there anyone should be surprised by that.
I don't think our FO should be fired either (except Brandon Williams) but I think they made a mistake with the pick. I don't think they whiffed on the best player and drafted a bust but I think they made a mistake and didn't draft the player that I think will win more games in the future and I'm not basing that off of their rookie year comparisons. I've held that belief since before either one of them stepped onto an NBA court.
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