Beal would cost us Buddy (at least) and change, to be sure. But, Beal is an All-Star talent on a great contract and is in the Team USA setup. Beal and Fox give us a big two, and then we’re just looking for the third this summer in the form of a SF. Plus, we have young guys like Giles and Bagley that are still coming up. It’s a much, much better recruiting pitch. Porter kind of locks us into our current roster already, which is part of the reason the Wizards got in so much trouble. If Beal is available, let’s go get him.
SF Trades
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
Watched the Clippers/Wizards game, which was weird. It was a blowout from the start until the Wizards went on a 20 point comeback in the second half.
I watched the game to observe the 3 SFs in the game.
Tobias Harris: He scores with ease. He's big enough to bang with a lot of 4s. He's pretty comfortoable handling the ball. He's not an idiot on defense. Tries to stay in front of his guy. Backed down Porter once on a post-up and scored. The cons are that he trotted up the floor a lot. Not sure how'd he fit in a high pace system. He also tried to do too much towards the end and had turnovers. He's not a #1 option.
Otto Porter: Plays smart team defense. Doesn't get in the way. Made a huge, clutch offensive rebound that pretty much won the game for the Wiz. Directs players on defense on where to go. Doesn't score a lot but doesn't see a lot of shots. Moves easily. He looks like a guy that just fits in. Not going to score as much as Harris, but does everything else a bit.
Kelly Oubre: Struggled in this game. Got beat on defense a couple of the times I was watching. Didn't earn a lot of minutes. Lost his time to other players. Had 12 mintues with a -8. His 3pt% has plummeted to 28% this season after a hot start.
Extra Player: Tomas Satoransky. This is a Czech player I waned the Kings to draft one year, even though it took him awhile to get here and develop into what he is now. I felt he was worth a 2nd rounder or late 1st. He pretty much is the main reason the Wiz came back. He is Wall's backup on the team. He's 6'7 210 lbs. Handles and passes like a PG. Shoots well. Athletic. He ran the Wizards offfense and got everyone involved, finding open threes and easier shots for others. On defense, he got beat here and there, but recovers well and makes smart moves. His defense prowess is from reading the other team. He had 1 block and 3 stls. The block came when he got beat and recovered. I think he's the best value if the Wiz do blow it up. I don't know how he fits on the Kings, but Wizards fans love him. He can maybe play some SF. He's a 3 position guy, 1-3 but does best at PG.
I watched the game to observe the 3 SFs in the game.
Tobias Harris: He scores with ease. He's big enough to bang with a lot of 4s. He's pretty comfortoable handling the ball. He's not an idiot on defense. Tries to stay in front of his guy. Backed down Porter once on a post-up and scored. The cons are that he trotted up the floor a lot. Not sure how'd he fit in a high pace system. He also tried to do too much towards the end and had turnovers. He's not a #1 option.
Otto Porter: Plays smart team defense. Doesn't get in the way. Made a huge, clutch offensive rebound that pretty much won the game for the Wiz. Directs players on defense on where to go. Doesn't score a lot but doesn't see a lot of shots. Moves easily. He looks like a guy that just fits in. Not going to score as much as Harris, but does everything else a bit.
Kelly Oubre: Struggled in this game. Got beat on defense a couple of the times I was watching. Didn't earn a lot of minutes. Lost his time to other players. Had 12 mintues with a -8. His 3pt% has plummeted to 28% this season after a hot start.
Extra Player: Tomas Satoransky. This is a Czech player I waned the Kings to draft one year, even though it took him awhile to get here and develop into what he is now. I felt he was worth a 2nd rounder or late 1st. He pretty much is the main reason the Wiz came back. He is Wall's backup on the team. He's 6'7 210 lbs. Handles and passes like a PG. Shoots well. Athletic. He ran the Wizards offfense and got everyone involved, finding open threes and easier shots for others. On defense, he got beat here and there, but recovers well and makes smart moves. His defense prowess is from reading the other team. He had 1 block and 3 stls. The block came when he got beat and recovered. I think he's the best value if the Wiz do blow it up. I don't know how he fits on the Kings, but Wizards fans love him. He can maybe play some SF. He's a 3 position guy, 1-3 but does best at PG.
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Satoransky and think he'd be a quality fit here. He's a really talented ball-handler/playmaker and think he's a guy you can flex in at the 1-3, which is important when backing up Fox. He's similar to an Otto Porter or Bjelica in a way where he's never going to light up the box score, but he's going to have excellent peripheral stats and do a lot of little things that make the team better. One of the many mistakes the Wizards have made is reducing his role in favor of getting Austin Rivers more run.
My views on trying to trade for Porter are changing almost every day. I would love to get him, since he fits so many of our needs, and despite his big contract, fits our timeline. I mean, we will have to pay someone next year, likely several players a good deal of money just to reach the floor. Why not a guy like Porter who fits both our time line, as well as needs. Adding him increases our chances of making the playoffs this year significantly.
The trouble is what do we need to cough up to get him. When I look at the Wizards record, and the fact that unless they make a trade, they are on the hook for $108.5 M for just four players next year (Wall, Beal, Porter, Mahinmi, and will certainly lose Oubre next year for no compensation), I feel they will trade Porter for very little value just to get out of this mess?
Then I look at the East standings, and they are in the 10th place, just 2.5 games out of 7th. Assuming Celtics, Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, and Pacers to be the top 5 teams in the East, Wiz might be in the playoff hunt till pretty much the whole year. If so, they will certainly not give up on Porter for just cap space.
So, do we give up some young asset to try and get Porter now, or try for Oubre (or some other SF) in the summer? Depending on what we might need to give up, I'm leaning to the former. He has two years on his contract after this, and we'll need to pay someone anyway (Willie + Porter). When the time comes to pay Buddy, Bogdan, and hopefully Skal, he will be in the final year of his contract, and we should still have several key players on rookie contracts allowing us to pay these guys without breaking.
The trouble is what do we need to cough up to get him. When I look at the Wizards record, and the fact that unless they make a trade, they are on the hook for $108.5 M for just four players next year (Wall, Beal, Porter, Mahinmi, and will certainly lose Oubre next year for no compensation), I feel they will trade Porter for very little value just to get out of this mess?
Then I look at the East standings, and they are in the 10th place, just 2.5 games out of 7th. Assuming Celtics, Raptors, Bucks, Sixers, and Pacers to be the top 5 teams in the East, Wiz might be in the playoff hunt till pretty much the whole year. If so, they will certainly not give up on Porter for just cap space.
So, do we give up some young asset to try and get Porter now, or try for Oubre (or some other SF) in the summer? Depending on what we might need to give up, I'm leaning to the former. He has two years on his contract after this, and we'll need to pay someone anyway (Willie + Porter). When the time comes to pay Buddy, Bogdan, and hopefully Skal, he will be in the final year of his contract, and we should still have several key players on rookie contracts allowing us to pay these guys without breaking.
I also like Sato but the problem is he's almost useless unless he's starting and getting the ball a lot like when John Wall went down last season, he absolutely has sucked playing off the bench, but as a starter he was pretty good (statistically he was insane in terms of %'s) and for the first time looked like a quality NBA player. In that way he's a lot like Bjelica where if he's reduced to a limited role and touches he's better not having on the team cause he will stink it up but if he gets touches and more freedom he can win you games with good all round play.
It's definitely a good point. However, despite the win last night, the whole Wizards organization seems to be kind of a mess right now, which might be a contributor.
While I certainly have concerns about his contract, I also wonder if he would put up better numbers with more touches. He's clearly not a high priority in the Wizards offensive scheme right now, and in our free flowing fast paced offense that desperately needs a SF, I wonder if he might just end up thriving.
Who knows!
While I certainly have concerns about his contract, I also wonder if he would put up better numbers with more touches. He's clearly not a high priority in the Wizards offensive scheme right now, and in our free flowing fast paced offense that desperately needs a SF, I wonder if he might just end up thriving.
Who knows!
Buddy for Beal is a lateral move. Beal is a bit better at some things, but Buddy is a better defender and shooter at this point. The difference between the two statistically is about 2 shots per game. Porter at max was a mistake. If he can factor into the cap without hurting other possibilities then maybe you go for that but it's a shame we aren't seeing Bogdan get a real shot at the gig.
Buddy is not a better defender than Beal. The only thing Buddy has over Beal is his shooting is better. Beal is a good three point shooter but that's not the only thing he can do, he is a good scorer. With that said, he isn't available. They would move Wall before they move Beal because they would be rebuilding and Beal is 25 so he hasn't hit his prime just yet.
I guess I'm confused by your last two sentences. I'm not sure how Beal's contract is a good contract, and Porter's isn't. It Porter picks up the last year of his contract, both he and Beal will be making almost the exact same money ( around 27.2 mil) for the next two years. So financially I don't see much difference. Not to mention, that even if we were able to trade for one of them, we would still have a wheel barrel load of money to go out and sign more freeagents.
If we pick up the option on Willie, which is probably a given, and we don't pick up the contracts of both Yogi Ferrell and Frank Mason, both team options, we would be around 57 mil under the cap. If we do pick up those options, then we would be around 52.5 mil under the cap. Substract Porter's salary from the 57 mil and your left with 29.8 mil to sign freeagents with. Substract it from the 52.5 mil and your left with 25.3 mil to work with.
Point is, he Kings could trade for either Porter or Beal, and I perfer Porter for obvious reasons, and we would still have a lot of flexibility. We would not be in the same situation as the Wiz. Remember, once we make Willie a restricted freeagent, the only thing counting against our cap is his option money, around 6.2 mil, and until another team gets him to sign an offer sheet, we can put him on the back burner and go after other freeagents. I do think Willie will get an offer, but I expect that all the early money will be directed at the bigger names, so the King should have some time to shop around a bit.
If we pick up the option on Willie, which is probably a given, and we don't pick up the contracts of both Yogi Ferrell and Frank Mason, both team options, we would be around 57 mil under the cap. If we do pick up those options, then we would be around 52.5 mil under the cap. Substract Porter's salary from the 57 mil and your left with 29.8 mil to sign freeagents with. Substract it from the 52.5 mil and your left with 25.3 mil to work with.
Point is, he Kings could trade for either Porter or Beal, and I perfer Porter for obvious reasons, and we would still have a lot of flexibility. We would not be in the same situation as the Wiz. Remember, once we make Willie a restricted freeagent, the only thing counting against our cap is his option money, around 6.2 mil, and until another team gets him to sign an offer sheet, we can put him on the back burner and go after other freeagents. I do think Willie will get an offer, but I expect that all the early money will be directed at the bigger names, so the King should have some time to shop around a bit.
1. Beal delivers value for his contract, and Porter is overpaid by about $9M per year (I’m ballparking).
2. Beal would cost us Buddy—whom I am sure we would extend next fall, and I don’t see this ownership group going into the luxury tax to do that. So, if we have Beal we have pretty set expenses for the next 2 years and can go shopping this summer. Porter + Buddy + Willie takes us out of the market next summer, I think.
Then we get into the hard to quantify, hoped for, soft skills of a guy like Beal recruiting for us this summer. I don’t think Porter is a draw, even if we are willing to spend. Lastly, I really don’t like a salary structure where you’re highest paid player, by a good margin, is your 5th best player. Even in a situation like ours, that will dent your chemistry sooner rather later—see under the Wizards. A major part of their narrative is that Wall was making less than Beal and Porter for a few seasons, and I’m sure that factored into Wall’s supermax. The type of thing where you are promising him and his agent the max to keep him happy, and then you get to the point where you have to give him the contract or risk burning a major agent and tanking the trade value of your top player. I’m not rabidly against getting Porter, I just think there are some better targets on the board.
2. Beal would cost us Buddy—whom I am sure we would extend next fall, and I don’t see this ownership group going into the luxury tax to do that. So, if we have Beal we have pretty set expenses for the next 2 years and can go shopping this summer. Porter + Buddy + Willie takes us out of the market next summer, I think.
Then we get into the hard to quantify, hoped for, soft skills of a guy like Beal recruiting for us this summer. I don’t think Porter is a draw, even if we are willing to spend. Lastly, I really don’t like a salary structure where you’re highest paid player, by a good margin, is your 5th best player. Even in a situation like ours, that will dent your chemistry sooner rather later—see under the Wizards. A major part of their narrative is that Wall was making less than Beal and Porter for a few seasons, and I’m sure that factored into Wall’s supermax. The type of thing where you are promising him and his agent the max to keep him happy, and then you get to the point where you have to give him the contract or risk burning a major agent and tanking the trade value of your top player. I’m not rabidly against getting Porter, I just think there are some better targets on the board.
Porter's salary wouldn't be a problem with this young team and if the Wizards keep their tailspin they may be stuck having to settle for a salary dump. I think the young kids with big salaries is more of a problem when you have a vet who hasn't gotten into the new salary structure yet so a situation like Jimmy Butler with the Wolves. In our case the kids are all on rookie deals and will get Porter money and more when they have played out their first contract.
Buddy is a key part of this team, you don't move him. That's playing with chemistry and no.
Buddy is a key part of this team, you don't move him. That's playing with chemistry and no.
I want Porter more day by day
I tweeted these the other day. They both work. Add 2nd round picks as need to complete them.
Scenario 1. This get the Wizards under the Luxury tax. We are the only team who can do this. This saves the Wizards an almost 21MM luxury tax payment alone as they would be in the repeater tax this year. I think this deal is the most likely.
Scenario 2, if for some reason they want a wing back that can play, maybe they want JJ thrown in. Highly unlikely because of the cost he represents to them in luxury tax.
If we prorate the salary for the year, plus the luxury tax savings, we save the Wizards almost $80MM. That is not an insignificant number at all.
Porter is an above average rebounder for a Wing. He can play 3 and 4. Fills a giant gap in our lineup where athletic wings beat us up. He plays phenomenal team defense and doesn't need the ball in his hands.
The following year, we can resign Shump for a lower salary for 2+1 T/O and maybe give a 1 year flyer on a player like Aminu from Portland. Another defensive Wing. Extend Willie for a little over 15MM a season. Give him a PO.
20/21 would be interesting because we are probably looking at to huge salaries in Buddy and Bogi both being RFA's, but we can deal with that, then. Actually as I am typing this out, maybe Shump deal is 1+1 with team option with small guarantee for year 2. Lets us sign Bogi and Buddy to contract that will probably both be north of 15MM per year. Buddy for sure will be.
Also, we have lots of flexibility with cutting or trading Yogi, JJ, Frank and Skal.
I tweeted these the other day. They both work. Add 2nd round picks as need to complete them.
Scenario 1. This get the Wizards under the Luxury tax. We are the only team who can do this. This saves the Wizards an almost 21MM luxury tax payment alone as they would be in the repeater tax this year. I think this deal is the most likely.
Scenario 2, if for some reason they want a wing back that can play, maybe they want JJ thrown in. Highly unlikely because of the cost he represents to them in luxury tax.
If we prorate the salary for the year, plus the luxury tax savings, we save the Wizards almost $80MM. That is not an insignificant number at all.
Porter is an above average rebounder for a Wing. He can play 3 and 4. Fills a giant gap in our lineup where athletic wings beat us up. He plays phenomenal team defense and doesn't need the ball in his hands.
The following year, we can resign Shump for a lower salary for 2+1 T/O and maybe give a 1 year flyer on a player like Aminu from Portland. Another defensive Wing. Extend Willie for a little over 15MM a season. Give him a PO.
20/21 would be interesting because we are probably looking at to huge salaries in Buddy and Bogi both being RFA's, but we can deal with that, then. Actually as I am typing this out, maybe Shump deal is 1+1 with team option with small guarantee for year 2. Lets us sign Bogi and Buddy to contract that will probably both be north of 15MM per year. Buddy for sure will be.
Also, we have lots of flexibility with cutting or trading Yogi, JJ, Frank and Skal.
I think the problem is that we assume the Wizards would just dump him to avoid the luxury tax. I don't think they'd do that. If they're trading Porter, it means they're getting an equal asset back OR they're blowing up the entire team... and in that case, everyone would be on the trading block and I'm sure they could shift enough money around without giving up arguably their 2nd most valuable asset for free (John Wall is a very good player but that contract is horrendous).
I actually think that if the Wizards do blow it up they are not going to get equal value for any of their players, including Porter. Every single player on the Wizards is stinking right now because the entire team is a smelly pile of garbage. Even a rose in the midst of manure smells like manure. Every GM has to ask himself whether any potential Wizard trade candidate was part of the problem on that team. I'd be interested in both Porter and Oubre, but no way am I paying the same value for them this year that I would have paid for them a year or two ago.
Exactly they're not just going to trade him for nothing, he's still young and a solid player that can help a good team. If the Kings were the trading partner I'd imagine besides Z-BO's contract they would want Giles and Justin Jackson. Kings would probably rather give up Skal instead of Giles but if you were Washington you absolutely demand Giles in that trade.
Yeah it all depends on whether the Wiz want to do a complete rebuild or just keep things going with players that can keep them in the playoffs. I personally don't think the Kings will be a landing spot for Porter. I think they'll play as hard as they can this year and then hope that entices a FA to sign here so they don't have to give up any of the young core.
I dont think you guys understand the cap hell they are in. Next season, with 6 players on the roster (that included Dwight Howard picking up his P/O) + adding a mid lottery pick they will be at about 123,00,000 in salary. They need to add 8 players to that, including Oubre who is an RFA that will probably get 15-18 per year on the open market.
Lets say they just add minimum players and a MLE. That will be another 20ish milling in salary depending on the years of service those players have. Putting them north of 140 million, their 3rd year of Luxury tax repeater penalties.
They would prefer to get rid of Ian, but they would have attach assets for that.
They can ask for players back, but that keeps them in the tax. WE absolutely provide their best option.
Like I said, say they want Skal and JJ instead of Ben so they have some young players who aren't expensive, sure, take them. Actually helps us out TBH.
Lets say they just add minimum players and a MLE. That will be another 20ish milling in salary depending on the years of service those players have. Putting them north of 140 million, their 3rd year of Luxury tax repeater penalties.
They would prefer to get rid of Ian, but they would have attach assets for that.
They can ask for players back, but that keeps them in the tax. WE absolutely provide their best option.
Like I said, say they want Skal and JJ instead of Ben so they have some young players who aren't expensive, sure, take them. Actually helps us out TBH.
As Mac points out Washington really has no choice but to blow up the team. And while they might be able to get some assets back for Beal, they really do need a salary dump and to start over. We could throw in 3-4 second rounders which isn't particularly ideal for most but it actually does help them secure cheap players. I feel like this is a let's play chicken until someone blinks. The longer it goes on the worse it gets for the Wizards.
Wasn’t too big on the idea of trading for Porter but this thread talked me into it lol. There are very few realistic SF options in FA that will fit our style and timeline, let alone if they even want to sign with us. Porter, although expensive, has several pluses:
• still young, enters prime in the next couple season (fits timeline)
• generally a good 3 point shooter, even if he has dropped off a bit this year
• provides versatility potential as a 3/4 for us
Overall, he shouldn’t be getting paid $26-27 million a year but he would probably be worth it for our team in particular, seeing as he plays a position of need, fits our style and is young. Anyone else we would sign in FA will also be overpaid, so why not go for Porter who we wouldn’t have to convince to come here.
• still young, enters prime in the next couple season (fits timeline)
• generally a good 3 point shooter, even if he has dropped off a bit this year
• provides versatility potential as a 3/4 for us
Overall, he shouldn’t be getting paid $26-27 million a year but he would probably be worth it for our team in particular, seeing as he plays a position of need, fits our style and is young. Anyone else we would sign in FA will also be overpaid, so why not go for Porter who we wouldn’t have to convince to come here.