Future of Willie Cauley-Stein?

Karl had Cousins move out to the 3pt line because he could shoot. He had Willie setting screens out there but he was always rolling to the hoop catching lobs. Rondo and Collison initiated the offense. Willie wasn't out there looking for cutters at the top of the key like he does in Joerger's offense.
"I think Seth will be a combo guard, play both 1 and 2. I think usually those guys when I look at them, I see them probably trying to score a little bit too much and I think he probably should become more of a playmaking point as much as a scoring point. But he's going to be around for a couple years. He's definitely going to have a few more years of someone; I think we have him for one more year. I think he has a tenacity to him and a good basketball feel to him. Now he's just got to be confident and consistent."

Karl on Willie Cauley-Stein’s big game: “His offense has been blessed by a lot of good plays by other people.”

Karl on Willie Cauley-Stein: A lot of his success has been we’ve made really good passes. It’s easy to make dunks and lobs."

People (and Cousins) gave him so much flak for this .. Obviously they were backhanded compliments of sorts perhaps inappropriate for a coach to say, but they are also proving very very true thus far.
 
WCS is a crucial component to the Kings upward trajectory over the next 2 seasons. He is going to help Giles and Marvin play the game their tailored to play. Those who think his days are numbered here are underestimating the enemy, the frontcourt needs Wilie.
I'm not sure I'd go as far as "crucial" but I generally agree that, if I squint a bit, I can envision WCS as a semi-ideal third big in the rotation with Giles and Bagley. The questions are -- would he be willing to accept a role, and would he re-sign at a price appropriate for this role?
 
"I think Seth will be a combo guard, play both 1 and 2. I think usually those guys when I look at them, I see them probably trying to score a little bit too much and I think he probably should become more of a playmaking point as much as a scoring point. But he's going to be around for a couple years. He's definitely going to have a few more years of someone; I think we have him for one more year. I think he has a tenacity to him and a good basketball feel to him. Now he's just got to be confident and consistent."

Karl on Willie Cauley-Stein’s big game: “His offense has been blessed by a lot of good plays by other people.”

Karl on Willie Cauley-Stein: A lot of his success has been we’ve made really good passes. It’s easy to make dunks and lobs."

People (and Cousins) gave him so much flak for this .. Obviously they were backhanded compliments of sorts perhaps inappropriate for a coach to say, but they are also proving very very true thus far.
I pretty much agreed with most things that Karl said but his comments are things that we should be saying on a message board. They aren't the types of things that a coach should be saying to the media about his players.

Although the Coke machine joke about Derrick Williams is one of my all time favorite quotes and it's seriously true. A Coke machine sitting about 8ft from the hoop would have more rebounds hit it than Derrick Williams could ever grab with all his his athleticism.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
I'm not sure I'd go as far as "crucial" but I generally agree that, if I squint a bit, I can envision WCS as a semi-ideal third big in the rotation with Giles and Bagley. The questions are -- would he be willing to accept a role, and would he re-sign at a price appropriate for this role?
I have an idea - maybe we actually see if these guys can outplay WCS before we start relegating him to the backup role?
 
I have an idea - maybe we actually see if these guys can outplay WCS before we start relegating him to the backup role?
Not"relegating" at all -- just gazing into my crystal ball and imagining future possibilities, based on hopeful assumptions about career trajectories. If we can't engage in idle speculation in the throes of TDOS, then what should we be discussing?
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
Not"relegating" at all -- just gazing into my crystal ball and imagining future possibilities, based on hopeful assumptions about career trajectories. If we can't engage in idle speculation in the throes of TDOS, then what should we be discussing?
Knock yourself out, but neither of our rooks have played 1 minute of real NBA basketball yet. Seems like we keep having folks projecting their futures when they may not be able to even outplay WCS (I think they will with a little time, especially Giles earlier in the season?). But now you are also speculating on WCS's salary when we don't know how well he plays next year or how well two untested rookies play? Just seems a bit....premature. But hey, I guess that is what all those college player tracking/drafting threads are for as well that I never really delve into either. ;)
 
I'm not sure I'd go as far as "crucial" but I generally agree that, if I squint a bit, I can envision WCS as a semi-ideal third big in the rotation with Giles and Bagley. The questions are -- would he be willing to accept a role, and would he re-sign at a price appropriate for this role?
I think he would and the market will determine the price point.
 
What if WCS was more consistent?
If he could give us 13 and 9 in 30min of work a night, that would be nice. He just has too many games where he's not on the glass and he doesn't score efficiently. Part of it is how soft he is and part of it is the way Joerger uses him. You might not score every night but rebounding is something that is pretty consistent for most centers. It's just hard to win when over the course of 4 games, your center gives you

10 and 6
4 and 4
8 and 5
21 and 12

That's one good game, one below average game and two awful games. The guy has elite length and athleticism for his position and is just kind of "there" half the time. You know I love my advanced stats and the funny thing is that they say that WCS is the best player on the team. I think it's mainly because of his defensive abilities. He's a pretty high IQ defender, he just hardly uses his physical gifts so instead of being the next Tyson Chandler or Hassan Whiteside....he's just this guy who is a starter on a bad team and a backup on every other team.

He should be getting a Clint Capela type deal next year but instead his coach has him on a quest to become Marc Gasol and he has himself on a quest to become KAT.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
If he could give us 13 and 9 in 30min of work a night, that would be nice. He just has too many games where he's not on the glass and he doesn't score efficiently. Part of it is how soft he is and part of it is the way Joerger uses him. You might not score every night but rebounding is something that is pretty consistent for most centers. It's just hard to win when over the course of 4 games, your center gives you

10 and 6
4 and 4
8 and 5
21 and 12

That's one good game, one below average game and two awful games. The guy has elite length and athleticism for his position and is just kind of "there" half the time. You know I love my advanced stats and the funny thing is that they say that WCS is the best player on the team. I think it's mainly because of his defensive abilities. He's a pretty high IQ defender, he just hardly uses his physical gifts so instead of being the next Tyson Chandler or Hassan Whiteside....he's just this guy who is a starter on a bad team and a backup on every other team.

He should be getting a Clint Capela type deal next year but instead his coach has him on a quest to become Marc Gasol and he has himself on a quest to become KAT.
maybe he needs to get humbled like Nerlens Noel did?
 
If he could give us 13 and 9 in 30min of work a night, that would be nice. He just has too many games where he's not on the glass and he doesn't score efficiently. Part of it is how soft he is and part of it is the way Joerger uses him. You might not score every night but rebounding is something that is pretty consistent for most centers. It's just hard to win when over the course of 4 games, your center gives you

10 and 6
4 and 4
8 and 5
21 and 12

That's one good game, one below average game and two awful games. The guy has elite length and athleticism for his position and is just kind of "there" half the time. You know I love my advanced stats and the funny thing is that they say that WCS is the best player on the team. I think it's mainly because of his defensive abilities. He's a pretty high IQ defender, he just hardly uses his physical gifts so instead of being the next Tyson Chandler or Hassan Whiteside....he's just this guy who is a starter on a bad team and a backup on every other team.

He should be getting a Clint Capela type deal next year but instead his coach has him on a quest to become Marc Gasol and he has himself on a quest to become KAT.
In the second half of last season (he played 35 of the final 41 games) WCS averaged 30 mins, 13.9 pts & 7.7 rbs. Here is how it played out:
Mins - points - rebounds
32 - 23 - 13
40 - 15 - 6
37 - 26 - 10
27 - 7 - 11
37 - 11 - 10
33 - 21 - 9
31 - 9 - 4
35 - 13 - 6
31 - 14 - 8
17 - 7 - 6
31 - 19 - 6
26 - 10 - 7
28 - 10 - 4
28 - 12 - 8
22 - 9 - 7
37 - 18 - 15
30 - 17 - 5
31 - 17 - 10
35 - 17 - 7
30 - 12 - 8
29 - 9 - 7
36 - 10 - 9
26 - 9 - 6
29 - 9 - 4
31 - 9 - 6
19 - 2 - 6
33 - 14 - 6
25 - 13 - 6
27 - 19 - 7
24 - 12 - 9
20 - 11 - 7
37 - 18 - 7
33 - 18 - 8
38 - 25 - 10
30 - 22 - 11

That looks fairly consistent to me. He had 4 games (of 35) when he grabbed fewer than 6 rebounds. The question is if he can continue doing that in the future while hopefully improving as well.
 
Willie didn't show up to Vegas for moral support. Tells me more and all I need to know. Get rid of this guy. Another poster suggested a sign and trade to CLE for Rodney Hood. Not bad but I would rather pursue a 4/80 offer to Clint Capella and sending Willie to the Rockets. This would be awesome for us. Willie is a fake just like G-Leaguer Jackson is a fake. I have watched enough NBA over 30 years to discern the contenders from pretenders.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Back from Las Vegas where Unci03 met up with the Capt. Had a great time and saw a lot of basketball. Unfortunately I didn't get to see a lot of Bagley, but obviously he has some work to do. Fortunately I was in Sacramento for three games, so saw him there. He was better defensively than I thought he would be, and most of his mistakes, were just that, mistakes. But on the ball he was pretty darn good. In his last game, he gave Ayton fits out there and Ayton did most of his scoring when Bagley was off the floor. Especially at the end of the game when it was garbage time, and Bag's had been pulled.

In regards to Willie, I'm not sure why everyone wants to trade him. He played well and more consistently his last 25 games of the year, and by the way, whether anyone knows it or not, right now, not counting Randolph and Koufos who likely won't be here after this season, Willie is the best big man on this team. And, he's a legit athletic seven foot center. Now two years from now he may not be the best big man on the team, but right now he is, and you don't get rid of your best big man.

I might add, that even if, and I hope they do, Bagley and Giles surpass Willie, that doesn't mean you have to get rid of him. You need more than two bigs on your team, and Willie has proven that he's an NBA player. And, by years end, he may prove more than that. Let's wait and see. This will be his 4th year in the league, and that's historically a year when big men break out.

Glad to be back home where it's still warm, but living on the beach means you usually get cooler temps and a nice breeze. Still waiting for the Kings to fill two roster spots, and two, two way spots. I suggest giving the two ways to Gabriel and Auguste. I really like Gabriel who got lost in the mix of bigs at Kentucky. Auguste was very consistent and plays like the energizer bunny. He's a sneaky rebounder. I thought Brandon Austin had a couple of nice games as well.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Willie didn't show up to Vegas for moral support. Tells me more and all I need to know. Get rid of this guy. Another poster suggested a sign and trade to CLE for Rodney Hood. Not bad but I would rather pursue a 4/80 offer to Clint Capella and sending Willie to the Rockets. This would be awesome for us. Willie is a fake just like G-Leaguer Jackson is a fake. I have watched enough NBA over 30 years to discern the contenders from pretenders.
O. M. G. You've made some weak observations before but this one has to be the weakest. Bar none.
 
Back from Las Vegas where Unci03 met up with the Capt. Had a great time and saw a lot of basketball. Unfortunately I didn't get to see a lot of Bagley, but obviously he has some work to do. Fortunately I was in Sacramento for three games, so saw him there. He was better defensively than I thought he would be, and most of his mistakes, were just that, mistakes. But on the ball he was pretty darn good. In his last game, he gave Ayton fits out there and Ayton did most of his scoring when Bagley was off the floor. Especially at the end of the game when it was garbage time, and Bag's had been pulled.

In regards to Willie, I'm not sure why everyone wants to trade him. He played well and more consistently his last 25 games of the year, and by the way, whether anyone knows it or not, right now, not counting Randolph and Koufos who likely won't be here after this season, Willie is the best big man on this team. And, he's a legit athletic seven foot center. Now two years from now he may not be the best big man on the team, but right now he is, and you don't get rid of your best big man.

I might add, that even if, and I hope they do, Bagley and Giles surpass Willie, that doesn't mean you have to get rid of him. You need more than two bigs on your team, and Willie has proven that he's an NBA player. And, by years end, he may prove more than that. Let's wait and see. This will be his 4th year in the league, and that's historically a year when big men break out.

Glad to be back home where it's still warm, but living on the beach means you usually get cooler temps and a nice breeze. Still waiting for the Kings to fill two roster spots, and two, two way spots. I suggest giving the two ways to Gabriel and Auguste. I really like Gabriel who got lost in the mix of bigs at Kentucky. Auguste was very consistent and plays like the energizer bunny. He's a sneaky rebounder. I thought Brandon Austin had a couple of nice games as well.
Baja, I always appreciate your insight about hoops but let’s agree that referring back to a players performance during tank SZN is not always helpful. We thought Skal was ready to break out after how he closed out the season a couple years ago and that proved to be due to the decline in effort and guys being rested towards the end. I have been one of Willies biggest critics not because I don’t believe in his abilities, but because I don’t believe he has the drive to reach his potential from what he has displayed so far and that frustrates me. I hope he can be apart of things moving forward but right now, I’d put money that it’s more likely Skal becomes that third big as a stretch big than Willie being anything consistent we can rely on moving forward.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
Back from Las Vegas where Unci03 met up with the Capt. Had a great time and saw a lot of basketball.
I'd like to give a tip of the hat here to Uncia and Baja, who are always great companions for watching basketball.

I'd also like to point out (completely unrelated to the topic of the thread, which is evidently WCS) that while the Kings went 0-3 in summer league games I did not personally attend, they went 3-2 in games that I *did* attend. Clearly this is a large enough sample size to make vast and sweeping conclusions, and I would encourage any Kings front office personnel who might be reading this post to consider providing me with some season tickets, which would obviously translate to an extra 24-25 wins on the season. ;)
 
I'd like to give a tip of the hat here to Uncia and Baja, who are always great companions for watching basketball.

I'd also like to point out (completely unrelated to the topic of the thread, which is evidently WCS) that while the Kings went 0-3 in summer league games I did not personally attend, they went 3-2 in games that I *did* attend. Clearly this is a large enough sample size to make vast and sweeping conclusions, and I would encourage any Kings front office personnel who might be reading this post to consider providing me with some season tickets, which would obviously translate to an extra 24-25 wins on the season. ;)
Glad you survived the old man smells. :eek:
 
In the second half of last season (he played 35 of the final 41 games) WCS averaged 30 mins, 13.9 pts & 7.7 rbs. Here is how it played out:
Mins - points - rebounds
32 - 23 - 13
40 - 15 - 6
37 - 26 - 10
27 - 7 - 11
37 - 11 - 10
33 - 21 - 9
31 - 9 - 4
35 - 13 - 6
31 - 14 - 8
17 - 7 - 6
31 - 19 - 6
26 - 10 - 7
28 - 10 - 4
28 - 12 - 8
22 - 9 - 7
37 - 18 - 15
30 - 17 - 5
31 - 17 - 10
35 - 17 - 7
30 - 12 - 8
29 - 9 - 7
36 - 10 - 9
26 - 9 - 6
29 - 9 - 4
31 - 9 - 6
19 - 2 - 6
33 - 14 - 6
25 - 13 - 6
27 - 19 - 7
24 - 12 - 9
20 - 11 - 7
37 - 18 - 7
33 - 18 - 8
38 - 25 - 10
30 - 22 - 11

That looks fairly consistent to me. He had 4 games (of 35) when he grabbed fewer than 6 rebounds. The question is if he can continue doing that in the future while hopefully improving as well.
Why cherry pick the second half of the season? He was good the second half of the season before as well and then came out of the gate with multiple single digit point, less than 5 rebound games. Even in the games you posted, he had a string of 15 games where he didn't record double digit rebounds. Two years in a row now he's ramped it up the second half of the year after a mediocre start but those numbers are going to be skewed with the number of teams tanking.
 
Baja, I always appreciate your insight about hoops but let’s agree that referring back to a players performance during tank SZN is not always helpful. We thought Skal was ready to break out after how he closed out the season a couple years ago and that proved to be due to the decline in effort and guys being rested towards the end. I have been one of Willies biggest critics not because I don’t believe in his abilities, but because I don’t believe he has the drive to reach his potential from what he has displayed so far and that frustrates me. I hope he can be apart of things moving forward but right now, I’d put money that it’s more likely Skal becomes that third big as a stretch big than Willie being anything consistent we can rely on moving forward.
By that line of reasoning, shouldn't the stats of Buddy, Fox, Bogi, JJ, and even Skal jumped off the page during the last half of the season, or do we just ignore any stats they put up during that time frame?
 
By that line of reasoning, shouldn't the stats of Buddy, Fox, Bogi, JJ, and even Skal jumped off the page during the last half of the season, or do we just ignore any stats they put up during that time frame?
But Buddy showed solid improvement all year long, Fox spent the season trying to figure out how to run an NBA offense but had moments of brilliance and was clutch, and Bogie was our best player.
 
Knock yourself out, but neither of our rooks have played 1 minute of real NBA basketball yet. Seems like we keep having folks projecting their futures when they may not be able to even outplay WCS (I think they will with a little time, especially Giles earlier in the season?). But now you are also speculating on WCS's salary when we don't know how well he plays next year or how well two untested rookies play? Just seems a bit....premature. But hey, I guess that is what all those college player tracking/drafting threads are for as well that I never really delve into either. ;)
Fair enough. This is a thread about “the future”, after all ;)
 
But Buddy showed solid improvement all year long, Fox spent the season trying to figure out how to run an NBA offense but had moments of brilliance and was clutch, and Bogie was our best player.
Buddy showed real improvement, especially defensively the last half of the season. I am not going to write that off to just playing against tanking teams and the level of the opposition. Fox had a lot on his plate but had his moments, but I did not see a sudden leap in his performance during the "tanking part of the season". Bogi was our best player, but I didn't see any sudden leap in his performance that you could say was attributed to other teams tanking. If anything, his consistency seemed to fall off a little bit as the season neared the end which I attribute to his lack of a real off season. Don't get me wrong, I am not criticizing these three, just saying if you can't give WCS credit for showing improvement during the "tanking season" then you have to wonder about their stats during the tanking season.

Willie started off slow, but had a nice streak of 8 games during the end of November (28 min. 14.5 pts. 7.1 reb) and there were even articles about how he was putting it together, but then on the 2nd of December he hurt his back and missed 4 straight games. Back problems tend to linger (I know this personally) and can cause other issues. Later he had some knee problems and then around the first of March missed another 4 games which I believe occurred when his back acted up again. So he may very well have been dealing with back problems most of the season, hopefully if that was the case it is cleared up, now.

Willie has a lot of things to work on and he doesn't want to just settle for being the one-dimensional player that a lot of people on here want him to be (even though he could make a lot of money if he would just settle). He wants to be a complete player, but he has a long way to go and the odds are probably against him. He did not develop basketball skills properly as a youngster (you know the wide reciever stories), he was not developed properly at UK (Calipari only used him as that one-dimensional type because that's the way Calipari's system works - showcase strengths, hide weaknesses, to get them to the NBA quickly), he was not developed any under Carl, and the first half season under Joerger was all about trying to win now so he spent most of the time on the bench behind Cuz and Koufos, only averaging about 12 minutes a game until Cuz was traded.

I don't know if Willie can become that complete player, he certainly has the athleticism for it, but the skills were not developed early. It's the old skills vs. athleticism argument. But I can't fault him for trying. He shouldn't have to look back and say he could have been a more complete player if he would only have worked on those skills. Working on those other skills probably at times reduce his effectiveness in other areas of strength. Joerger has allowed him to work on those skills since the Cuz trade and has also played him in a manner that reduces the effectiveness of a one- dimensional player that many want him to be (Joerger doesn't keep him camped out in the paint).

I am not saying you are part of it, but there is a clique on here that resents that Willie won't settle. They resent his lifestyle, that he has a life outside of basketball. They refuse to give him credit for anything good he does and will criticize anybody that does give him credit because it does not fit their agenda. If you see any thread on here about WCS, you will see that it always the same ones disparaging him. If anyone says anything positive about him, they are on it in an instant. They will accuse you of "cherry picking" stats to make him look good while they "cherry pick" stats that make him look bad. They will attack his character. They will make little snide remarks about his interest in art, his fashion sense, his interests outside of basketball. They will call him a stoner and all but accuse him of being a druggie (even though he has never to my knowledge failed a drug test or had any run ins with the law over drugs, but don't let facts get in way of the agenda).

Barring injury, I think this will be the season for Willie to have his breakout and see if he can really start to become that complete player. If he can't he may have to re-evaluate what kind of player he wants to be. But at least he will have given it a shot. I saw a lot of growth in WCS last season compared to the way he looked his last year at UK and his first two seasons in the NBA. He was able to do a lot of things that he couldn't come close to doing before, so maybe he can continue that growth as well as return to some of his strengths. That would be great for the Kings, but probably bad news for his detractors, but hey, they already have an out, they have said even if he does have a really good year, it doesn't mean anything because it is a contract year and that was the only reason he got better and he will return to his former bad self as soon as he gets a contract. Haters gonna hate. I have no doubt this reply will be attacked relentlessly by some of them, but I don't care, I've had my say and I don't need to repeat myself over and over.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Why cherry pick the second half of the season? He was good the second half of the season before as well and then came out of the gate with multiple single digit point, less than 5 rebound games. Even in the games you posted, he had a string of 15 games where he didn't record double digit rebounds. Two years in a row now he's ramped it up the second half of the year after a mediocre start but those numbers are going to be skewed with the number of teams tanking.
With young players, you look for growth, and that growth usually comes in the second half of the season if it comes at all. while I agree that both seasons had a similar look, last season was better overall than the one before, and remember, they moved Willie into the high post at the beginning of this last season, so one has to allow for some adjustment on his part.

Regardless of any of that, this is his 4th season and he has to put up or shut up. No more excuses this season. He knows the system, and he's familiar with most of his teammates, so he should come out of the box ready to play. If he rises to the occasion, then everyone benefits. If not, I'll no longer defend him, and his potential. At the end of four years your potential either shines through, or it doesn't.

I try not to judge a players heart, or what's in his mind because it's difficult. And, I've been wrong as often as I've been right. But I certainly understand those that have doubts. It's up to Willie to remove those doubts. I hope he does. For his sake, and for the teams sake. We'll see!