Future of Vlade

[sactowndog]

The Kings traded Hill and released PappaG to clear up cap space for this summer. They dumped an early second round pick with decent players on the board to free up roster spots. They have repeatedly struck out, despite a marginally competitive market.

I assumed they would sign Hezonja as a young potential player but even with Peja as his mentor they struck out. If they can’t sign Hezonja who can they sign? I have been trying to give Vlade the benefit of the doubt but this poor performance in signing free agents has to add to the negative side of the ledger.

Bagley looks challenged with his shot. If the youngsters don’t show real improvement this year could it be Vlade’s last?

 

[DerekJ]

The Kings traded Hill and released PappaG to clear up cap space for this summer. They dumped an early second round pick with decent players on the board to free up roster spots. They have repeatedly struck out, despite a marginally competitive market.

I assumed they would sign Hezonja as a young potential player but even with Peja as his mentor they struck out. If they can’t sign Hezonja who can they sign? I have been trying to give Vlade the benefit of the doubt but this poor performance in signing free agents has to add to the negative side of the ledger.

Bagley looks challenged with his shot. If the youngsters don’t show real improvement this year could it be Vlade’s last?

If the team doesn't win at least 35 games, he should be gone IMO.

 

[dude12]

Hill was a good signing but Hill played poorly.
Has brought in Fox, Giles, Bagley, Bogi, Hield
Signed mentor vets Carter, Zbo, Temple who have all done their job for what they were brought here to do
Brought in the best head coach we have had since Adelman
Helped stabilize the Front office with hires after the PDA/Mullin dumpster fire
Had Lavine signed, sealed, delivered but Chicago matched
Team has zero bad contracts when most of the league gave out terrible deals two years ago


All that said, sure there were some misses, but show me a team that hasn’t had misses. Stuck to their guns on Hezonja. Wanted him for multiple years to grow with team. MH wanted 1 year deal to grow his value. Smart move by Vlade to not give 1 year deal. The team is poised is to grow together and take a leap in the next few years when hopefully, the super teams come back to earth or we are able to jump past teams into the playoffs.

 

[midtowner]

We have a talented young core that like playing with each other. Vlade is going to be proven right about only wanting guys that want to be here (except if you can trade for a star). This team was totally lost before Vlade got here. He got taken advantage early, but finally the team is sticking to a plan. And the Kings are building a fast, exciting team.

 

[dude12]

Knee jerk.

Best post I’ve seen in a long time. Short, to the point, accurate.

 

[sactowndog]

Knee jerk.

Not knee jerk at all. He cleared space to sign a contributing free agent and failed. Targets were there who wouldn’t be matched for a number of reasons: McDermott, Hezonja, Anderson, Parker. Vlade struck out on all of them. At some point he has to be held accountable for lack of performance.

 

[datamanwes]

This post is a rush to judgement about this offseason

 

[dude12]

Not knee jerk at all. He cleared space to sign a contributing free agent and failed. Targets were there who wouldn’t be matched for a number of reasons: McDermott, Hezonja, Anderson, Parker. Vlade struck out on all of them. At some point he has to be held accountable for lack of performance.

For not getting those guys? Haha

 

[White_Chocolate]

Not knee jerk at all. He cleared space to sign a contributing free agent and failed. Targets were there who wouldn’t be matched for a number of reasons: McDermott, Hezonja, Anderson, Parker. Vlade struck out on all of them. At some point he has to be held accountable for lack of performance.

Outside of maaaaybe Parker none of those players are going to move the needle in the grand scheme of things.

 

[sactowndog]

Hill was a good signing but Hill played poorly.
Has brought in Fox, Giles, Bagley, Bogi, Hield
Signed mentor vets Carter, Zbo, Temple who have all done their job for what they were brought here to do
Brought in the best head coach we have had since Adelman
Helped stabilize the Front office with hires after the PDA/Mullin dumpster fire
Had Lavine signed, sealed, delivered but Chicago matched
Team has zero bad contracts when most of the league gave out terrible deals two years ago


All that said, sure there were some misses, but show me a team that hasn’t had misses. Stuck to their guns on Hezonja. Wanted him for multiple years to grow with team. MH wanted 1 year deal to grow his value. Smart move by Vlade to not give 1 year deal. The team is poised is to grow together and take a leap in the next few years when hopefully, the super teams come back to earth or we are able to jump past teams into the playoffs.

Read my posts I have given Vlade plenty of credit for good moves such as Bogdan.

Fox is still unclear if he was a good pick or not. A guard who can penetrate but can’t shoot or find open teammates is not worthy of a 5th overall pick.

NBA executives generally thought Bagley and Young were the most likely to bust coming out of Summer League. Marvin had real trouble scoring when defended. He clearly has a ways to go.

I didn’t say fire Vlade now but he hasn’t shown great ability to execute in free agency. An over the hill ZBo and Carter needs to pay off in mentorship of the young guys. If we don’t see progress this year Vlade may need to go.

 

[sactowndog]

This post is a rush to judgement about this offseason

Only Kings fans would call waiting until virtually all the unrestricted free agents are off the board a rush to judgement.

For what it’s worth, Jackson while looking marginally better still shot 31.9% from 3 for summer league. That doesn’t get it done for a 3 and D player. Journalists and NBA execs were incredulous that Vlade insists Bagley can play the three. We have a serious hole at 3 Vlade has done nothing to address.

 

[Gguod]

Hill was a good signing but Hill played poorly.

Hill was not a good signing. We have 12 million of dead Salary because of that signing, it cant be good. It was a misevaluation of his value if he was signed as a trade asset.

Has brought in Fox, Giles, Bagley, Bogi, Hield

True. Bogdanovic was a good trade, Giles is looking like he might be good. Jury is still out on Bagley, he passed on a guy that was the consensus and clear favorite amongst fans so he better get that right.

Signed mentor vets Carter, Zbo, Temple who have all done their job for what they were brought here to do

Is that supoosed to be one of the good things Vlade has done? Instead of utilizing cap space to get assets, he took 40 million and spent it on vet "mentors". Now because of that we still got 24mil of dead unplayable and untradeable salary in our books this season. You get mentors for minimum salary. Anthony Tolliver, teammate of the year from Detroit(?) couldve mentored for minimum. Vlade decided to spend 40mim instead.

Brought in the best head coach we have had since Adelman

Joeger hasnt shown he is a long term solution for us. Hasnt adapted his playstyle to our players, playstyle that is completely outdated and using that, we are giving unnecesary advantage to our opponents. This is probably his last year to show he can adapt. If he cant he'll probably be gone after the season.

Had Lavine signed, sealed, delivered but Chicago matched

Chicago might have saved Vlade. Huge risk for an unproven injury prone player. Even at his best season his team wasnt better when he was on the court.

Team has zero bad contracts when most of the league gave out terrible deals two years ago

Zbo 24mil/2, bad contract and still 12mil on the books as dead salary.
GHill bad contract, 12mil dead salary still in our books because of that.
Papa G is currently dead salary in our books.
For some reason we stretched Barnes so there is still dead salary from him in our books.

Also in general about Vlade. The trade with sixers was just horrible. It wasnt even bad, it was horrible and a fireable act itself. Losing our own pick as a rebuilding team really hurts. That wasnt just a "miss", it was a disaster. He hasnt been able to create assets by using our cap space. A big mistake for a gm of a rebuilding team. Signing 40million worth "mentors" while refusing to use the space to get picks. Now its 24mil dead cap plus no assets from using it. Same thing is apparently happening this offseason.

One has to do some mental gymnastics to get Vlade to look even average. And I'm not going to be satisfied for average Gm. I want a good gm that really helps this franchise. Hopefully our next Gm will be just that.

 

[dude12]

Hill was not a good signing. We have 12 million of dead Salary because of that signing, it cant be good. It was a misevaluation of his value if he was signed as a trade asset.



True. Bogdanovic was a good trade, Giles is looking like he might be good. Jury is still out on Bagley, he passed on a guy that was the consensus and clear favorite amongst fans so he better get that right.



Is that supoosed to be one of the good things Vlade has done? Instead of utilizing cap space to get assets, he took 40 million and spent it on vet "mentors". Now because of that we still got 24mil of dead unplayable and untradeable salary in our books this season. You get mentors for minimum salary. Anthony Tolliver, teammate of the year from Detroit(?) couldve mentored for minimum. Vlade decided to spend 40mim instead.



Joeger hasnt shown he is a long term solution for us. Hasnt adapted his playstyle to our players, playstyle that is completely outdated and using that, we are giving unnecesary advantage to our opponents. This is probably his last year to show he can adapt. If he cant he'll probably be gone after the season.



Chicago might have saved Vlade. Huge risk for an unproven injury prone player. Even at his best season his team wasnt better when he was on the court.



Zbo 24mil/2, bad contract and still 12mil on the books as dead salary.
GHill bad contract, 12mil dead salary still in our books because of that.
Papa G is currently dead salary in our books.
For some reason we stretched Barnes so there is still dead salary from him in our books.

Also in general about Vlade. The trade with sixers was just horrible. It wasnt even bad, it was horrible and a fireable act itself. Losing our own pick as a rebuilding team really hurts. That wasnt just a "miss", it was a disaster. He hasnt been able to create assets by using our cap space. A big mistake for a gm of a rebuilding team. Signing 40million worth "mentors" while refusing to use the space to get picks. Now its 24mil dead cap plus no assets from using it. Same thing is apparently happening this offseason.

One has to do some mental gymnastics to get Vlade to look even average. And I'm not going to be satisfied for average Gm. I want a good gm that really helps this franchise. Hopefully our next Gm will be just that.

They are executing a plan, the roster is acknowledged to be full of young talent. The Joerger criticism is just baffling. Keyboard coaches live in a cyber make believe world while Joerger actually manages real people who aren’t just x’s And o’s. The guy has won. Maybe we give him the correct amount of time to bring along the incredibly young team. Last time I checked, we have a crap ton of cap space next year.......that equals no bad contracts. I’ve seen and read more quotes from “professionals” that Bagley will be a double double machine in the NBA than a bust. That is because they don’t have knee jerk reactions to everything.

Perhaps the glass half empty people should take a deep breath and get with a realistic timeline instead of attaching the last decade worth of crap to the new regime.

 

[upinsmoke]

We'll see how the season plays out. Anything in the lackluster neighborhood and he's out.

 

[ockingsfan]

Well, considering the dumpster fire that our last brilliant GM PDA left Vlade, I think you need to give him at least 4 full years before we pass judgement. Besides DMC and Gay (pre-injury), the Kings were devoid of any talent.

We aren't going to sign any notable free agents until this team starts showing on the court that they have turned the corner. A nice 35+ win season next year would be a good starting point.

I expect that the Kings have accumulated some nice talent to build on since they started the rebuild less than 1 1/2 years ago. I think Fox, Bogdan, Hield, Giles, Bagley, WCS, and JJ will all be solid NBA players. If one or two of those guys turns out special, we will have a very good foundation.

I'll wait until the end of this season to see if the Kings are going in the right direction, before I make a judgement,

 

[sactowndog]

They are executing a plan, the roster is acknowledged to be full of young talent. The Joerger criticism is just baffling. Keyboard coaches live in a cyber make believe world while Joerger actually manages real people who aren’t just x’s And o’s. The guy has won. Maybe we give him the correct amount of time to bring along the incredibly young team. Last time I checked, we have a crap ton of cap space next year.......that equals no bad contracts. I’ve seen and read more quotes from “professionals” that Bagley will be a double double machine in the NBA than a bust. That is because they don’t have knee jerk reactions to everything.

Perhaps the glass half empty people should take a deep breath and get with a realistic timeline instead of attaching the last decade worth of crap to the new regime.

The plan was to sign a free agent acquisition who could fill the hole at SF this summer. Executing is the right verb just used in the wrong context.

 

[kingsboi]

how many Vlade threads are there gonna be in the offseason?

 

[Gguod]

They are executing a plan, the roster is acknowledged to be full of young talent.

If we trade away our franchise player and start rebuilding, after two years I expect us to have a roster full of young talent and extra draft picks. We have a lot of young players from trading down in drafts. My biggest problem is him not getting any extra assets by using our cap space.

The Joerger criticism is just baffling. Keyboard coaches live in a cyber make believe world while Joerger actually manages real people who aren’t just x’s And o’s. The guy has won. Maybe we give him the correct amount of time to bring along the incredibly young team.

Since hes won, the league has developed, many other teams have developed but Joeger hasnt. His playstyle is exactly the same as in Memphis and unfortunately that playstyle is a)outdated and inefficent and b)doesnt fit our personell at all. Joegers style of play is slow developing horns sets, bad spacing on the floor and it generates way too much mid range shots and not enough threes and easy layups. That offense doesnt generate the shots that are most efficent and creates shots that opponents are happy to give us. If you disagree, tell me why but saying he is above critisism because he is a coach in a "real world" is just stupid.

Last time I checked, we have a crap ton of cap space next year.......that equals no bad contracts.

No. Only no bad contracts equals no bad contracts. I just listed above the bad money we have on our books. We just signed two bad contracts last offseason that we still are paying for this season, this cant equal no bad contracts.

I’ve seen and read more quotes from “professionals” that Bagley will be a double double machine in the NBA than a bust. That is because they don’t have knee jerk reactions to everything.

I predicted him being a "double double machine" and still had other players over him in my board. As I said, since Vlade passed on Luka he better get this right.

Perhaps the glass half empty people should take a deep breath and get with a realistic timeline instead of attaching the last decade worth of crap to the new regime.

I've only listed things that Vlade has done badly. Im not attaching anything other than I'm not going to blindly trust everything this franchise does. I have a very realistic view on how hard rebuilding is and what should be done during it. I dont expect this rebuild to be over now and somehow we would be fighting for playoffs. Thats why Vlade losing our pick was horrible. Its not about glass being half full or half empty. Its evaluating the things Vlade has done and what he hasnt done.

 

[sactowndog]

Well, considering the dumpster fire that our last brilliant GM PDA left Vlade, I think you need to give him at least 4 full years before we pass judgement. Besides DMC and Gay (pre-injury), the Kings were devoid of any talent.

We aren't going to sign any notable free agents until this team starts showing on the court that they have turned the corner. A nice 35+ win season next year would be a good starting point.

I expect that the Kings have accumulated some nice talent to build on since they started the rebuild less than 1 1/2 years ago. I think Fox, Bogdan, Hield, Giles, Bagley, WCS, and JJ will all be solid NBA players. If one or two of those guys turns out special, we will have a very good foundation.

I'll wait until the end of this season to see if the Kings are going in the right direction, before I make a judgement,

I’m hopeful but your certainty is far removed from the data....

Fox had horrible advanced metrics last year and didn’t show any improved playmaking in the one summer league game he bothered to play. He should have been out there working in his playmaking but wasn’t.

Jackson looked better but still shot only 31.9% from 3 in summer league. Hard to project him shooting 36% plus in the faster paced NBA.

Bagley has superior quickness but his perimeter shooting has looked ugly. Many of his misses weren’t close and he struggled due to his left handedness against top defenders. He may well be great but he has a ways to go.

 

[ockingsfan]

I’m hopeful but your certainty is far removed from the data....

Fox had horrible advanced metrics last year and didn’t show any improved playmaking in the one summer league game he bothered to play. He should have been out there working in his playmaking but wasn’t.

Jackson looked better but still shot only 31.9% from 3 in summer league. Hard to project him shooting 36% plus in the faster paced NBA.

Bagley has superior quickness but his perimeter shooting has looked ugly. Many of his misses weren’t close and he struggled due to his left handedness against top defenders. He may well be great but he has a ways to go.

You do realize these guys all just finished their first year or are rookies, right?

It's going to take some time. Give them 3 years to develop, before we pass judgement on their careers.

 

[Iced Espresso]

I feel like he and Joerger are not even close to the hot seat, like it or not.

Even if we make a horrendous decision this off season, or if Joerger does a less than desirable job my prediction is they are both safe for at least another year.

Maybe if some or all of the above happens, at the end of this season something will happen. Not during.

 

[Ozymandias]

If the team doesn't win at least 35 games, he should be gone IMO.

They will probably win just about 33 games, a significant improvement in the scope of the teams age and the state of the western conference.


Lets not pretend that the west isn't at it's all-time strongest...

 

[Ozymandias]

In the event Vlade is run out of town he'll have left a trove of young players and flexibility and a culture of player development. Lets not pretend he's turned the verdant garden that was Kings basketball into a barren desert.

 

[sactowndog]

You do realize these guys all just finished their first year or are rookies, right?

It's going to take some time. Give them 3 years to develop, before we pass judgement on their careers.

I’m not passing judgement. I’m pointing out your statement they will be solid NBA players is far from certain....

Bogi, Giles and Buddy can reasonably be said they will be solid NBA players... Fox, Bagley and Jackson are far from certain.

 

[sactowndog]

They will probably win just about 33 games, a significant improvement in the scope of the teams age and the state of the western conference.


Lets not pretend that the west isn't at it's all-time strongest...

True other teams in the West had free agent signings that improved their team.

Mavericks signed DeAndre Jordan, Suns signed Ariza, Memphis signed Anderson.....

The Bagley draft was fine but necessitated finding a SF...

 

[upinsmoke]

I’m not passing judgement. I’m pointing out your statement they will be solid NBA players is far from certain....

Bogi, Giles and Buddy can reasonably be said they will be solid NBA players... Fox, Bagley and Jackson are far from certain.

I disagree, those individuals are hard working talented players.

 

[Hoovtrain]

Anyone worried that he is lazy? Let’s be honest, he was a pretty lazy player in terms of working out, etc, but got by because he was incredibly talented and a great leader and guy. He was never a grinder and I think you need to be a grinder to be a good GM

 

[sactowndog]

I disagree, those individuals are hard working talented players.

That’s your opinion. Fox’s horrible advanced stats and Justin’s 3 point percentages are facts.

 

[Reverend]

That’s your opinion. Fox’s horrible advanced stats and Justin’s 3 point percentages are facts.

I mean you’re wrong though but okay...

 

[dude12]

If we trade away our franchise player and start rebuilding, after two years I expect us to have a roster full of young talent and extra draft picks. We have a lot of young players from trading down in drafts. My biggest problem is him not getting any extra assets by using our cap space.



Since hes won, the league has developed, many other teams have developed but Joeger hasnt. His playstyle is exactly the same as in Memphis and unfortunately that playstyle is a)outdated and inefficent and b)doesnt fit our personell at all. Joegers style of play is slow developing horns sets, bad spacing on the floor and it generates way too much mid range shots and not enough threes and easy layups. That offense doesnt generate the shots that are most efficent and creates shots that opponents are happy to give us. If you disagree, tell me why but saying he is above critisism because he is a coach in a "real world" is just stupid.



No. Only no bad contracts equals no bad contracts. I just listed above the bad money we have on our books. We just signed two bad contracts last offseason that we still are paying for this season, this cant equal no bad contracts.



I predicted him being a "double double machine" and still had other players over him in my board. As I said, since Vlade passed on Luka he better get this right.



I've only listed things that Vlade has done badly. Im not attaching anything other than I'm not going to blindly trust everything this franchise does. I have a very realistic view on how hard rebuilding is and what should be done during it. I dont expect this rebuild to be over now and somehow we would be fighting for playoffs. Thats why Vlade losing our pick was horrible. Its not about glass being half full or half empty. Its evaluating the things Vlade has done and what he hasnt done.

Dude, Joerger has said why he’s taken the route he has. He’s said the timeline is several years in development. It’s been one year with this current group of young players. You choose to ignore what he has said because your unrealistic timeline doesn’t match with the guy in charge who has actually developed young talent. I’m going with the guy who has had success in real life and has a plan.