Dave Joergers offense, roster awareness and pace.

Kingsfan2002

Kingsfan2002

Bench
#1
#1
So we were dead last. Yes dead last in pace last year. All summer Joerger has been talking about fast, moving and pace. Yet he we go again. We get to once again watch 19/20 year olds run the same boring, super slow developing sets we ran last year, and every year since Joerger got here.

I'm not seeing any team effort or plan to running a more free flowing, fast offense. You'd think they would be implementing some of the most basic parts to this plan now. Instead I see 2 bigs in the high post pulling off the same "grit and grind" nonsense Joerger is obsessed with. Movement is terrible, spacing is terrible and its resulting in us forcing up bricks as the shot clock runs out. This happens 2 or 3x more than the other teams we've played so far.

I understand its the summer league. BUT we allegedly have far more superior talent our there right now. Theres no question that the 3 opponents we've played thus far made up of more G-leaguers have moved the ball around better and excelled at every part of the game.

Gotta admit I'm seriously worried about our strategy and coaches. Will Joerger be able to fix this pace problem? Not sure so far.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#3
#3
Kingsfan2002 said:
So we were dead last. Yes dead last in pace last year. All summer Joerger has been talking about fast, moving and pace. Yet he we go again. We get to once again watch 19/20 year olds run the same boring, super slow developing sets we ran last year, and every year since Joerger got here.

I'm not seeing any team effort or plan to running a more free flowing, fast offense. You'd think they would be implementing some of the most basic parts to this plan now. Instead I see 2 bigs in the high post pulling off the same "grit and grind" nonsense Joerger is obsessed with. Movement is terrible, spacing is terrible and its resulting in us forcing up bricks as the shot clock runs out. This happens 2 or 3x more than the other teams we've played so far.

I understand its the summer league. BUT we allegedly have far more superior talent our there right now. Theres no question that the 3 opponents we've played thus far made up of more G-leaguers have moved the ball around better and excelled at every part of the game.

Gotta admit I'm seriously worried about our strategy and coaches. Will Joerger be able to fix this pace problem? Not sure so far.
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You do realize Joerger has nothing to do with the summer league team, right?
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#5
#5
VF21 said:
You do realize Joerger has nothing to do with the summer league team, right?
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I can't see the assistants devising their own system. If they are that's very strange. The Warriors were running their system in summer league so far. The Kings are running theirs too. As little screen and roll as possible and getting the ball into the post with 5 seconds or less on the clock. :p
 
Kingsfan2002

Kingsfan2002

Bench
#7
#7
The offense we came out with to start was all Joergers plan. I will admit that I do believe that we started moving the ball better the 2nd half so far.

BUT thats probably due to some tweaks by the assistant coach on the fly at halftime. Which only further worries me because if its Dave Coaching out there right now he would probably still be forcing the issue with "his" system.
 
Kingsfan2002

Kingsfan2002

Bench
#9
#9
dude12 said:
Yeah, the first game of SL with Fox was a fast pace....no?
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meh? Fox is fast. True.

He's definitely improved and without question has the ability to impact the game with his speed. However Fox rushed by people in that 1st game after the offense had stalled and it was on Fox to create at the last min. Also Joerger I believe got the team to at least fast break more last year on rebounds and inbounds. Thats not the set offense tho. Theres a difference.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#11
#11
My prediction is the Kings will be 25th in pace this year. I think Joerger will implement some quicker developing plays in there but there's no way he just throws out the book and becomes a new age coach after one off season. Most of the slow moving garbage will still be in play the majority of the time.
 
Kingsfan2002

Kingsfan2002

Bench
#12
#12
ESP47 said:
My prediction is the Kings will be 25th in pace this year. I think Joerger will implement some quicker developing plays in there but there's no way he just throws out the book and becomes a new age coach after one off season. Most of the slow moving garbage will still be in play the majority of the time.
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This team minus Kofus and Zach are all super young! If we are In the bottom half of pace by all-star break Joerger should be fired immediately.

Worst yet if either of those 2 bigs start (KK or Zach) Joerger should be fired immediately.
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#13
#13
Joerger has a really young roster and he’s methodical in implementing his schemes and the follow up schemes. He’s said as much, that they have to be able to master this and have something to fall back on. I suspect there will be a faster pace but a better run HC offense as they get better, along with the pnr and pnp
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#14
#14
ESP47 said:
My prediction is the Kings will be 25th in pace this year. I think Joerger will implement some quicker developing plays in there but there's no way he just throws out the book and becomes a new age coach after one off season. Most of the slow moving garbage will still be in play the majority of the time.
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I'm going to be cautiously optimistic that this will not be the case. At the end of the year, I think it was pretty clear that the "slow moving garbage" was not going to get the majority of minutes. I prefer to have faith that Joerger will, in fact, continue to work with the kids. I'm really hoping we find a way to rehome ZBo.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#15
#15
I am probably far too sensitive to the summer league incompetence of the Kings' running game because of what we saw last year. Being last in pace when you have Fox, WCS, Jackson, Hield, Bogs and Skal should be viewed as sacrilege as far as I am concerned. That said, it's summer league, so I'm not going to go bonkers because of the past two games. But I sure as heck don't want to see anything close to this fast break incompetence that we've seen over the past two games when the regular season rolls around. Yes, Fox wasn't in there. But Fox doesn't play 48 minutes a game. What happens when he goes out?

These past two games should be a wake up call to management on what they need to look at in personnel decisions leading up to the regular season. Specifically, they have to be concerned about Mason and how he fits with bigs whose games thrive in the open court. They have to be asking themselves whether Mason is suited to this open court game. If you don't have Fox in the lineup, you sure as heck better have either a back up point guard who is speedy in his own right, and/or one who is adept at passing up the floor while on the move.

Of course, fixing the backup point guard situation is not going to be the end-all solution for Kings fast break woes. This team has to be coached-up to run. For beginners, I'd sure like to see after getting a defensive rebound our bigs immediately turn around with both hands on the ball over his head and snap an outlet pass to one of his teammates flying up the floor. That has got to be one my biggest pet peeves of this team last year - the incompetence at just starting the break.
 
Iced Espresso

Iced Espresso

Starter
#16
#16
Let's see.

But with our youth and athleticism if Fox paired with a runner like WCS can't get up and down the floor watch out.

Karl had Cuz & Rondo smoking out there and people were saying we need to slow it down. Starting to think we should of had Joerger back then and Karl now.
 
Iced Espresso

Iced Espresso

Starter
#17
#17
Kingsfan2002 said:
This team minus Kofus and Zach are all super young! If we are In the bottom half of pace by all-star break Joerger should be fired immediately.

Worst yet if either of those 2 bigs start (KK or Zach) Joerger should be fired immediately.
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Hate to break it to you, but I'd be shocked if Zbo doesn't start. Get ready for Shump possibly as well.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#18
#18
VF21 said:
I'm going to be cautiously optimistic that this will not be the case. At the end of the year, I think it was pretty clear that the "slow moving garbage" was not going to get the majority of minutes. I prefer to have faith that Joerger will, in fact, continue to work with the kids. I'm really hoping we find a way to rehome ZBo.
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I meant his offensive sets are slow moving garbage. Not ZBo :p

The Kings weren't really any faster out there regardless of who played. That was the troubling part. I was hoping with the vets resting at the end of the year that they would speed things up but that never happened. Maybe it was because they didn't have time to implement a faster offense but who knows. I just remember Joerger saying before the season that they were going to have a fast motion offense and if there was nothing working, then they'd swing it down to the big fella to go to work. I thought there was an actual fast paced offensive system in place and ZBo was the backup plan in case it didn't work. In reality, it was a slow moving offense and ZBo was the backup plan any time a fast break didn't work....which was 99% of the time.

I know you like to give Joerger the benefit of the doubt but at some point he has to perform. So far we've seen him work against the skills of the majority of the younger players because Fox, WCS and Hield have been misused badly as far as setting them up to succeed. The strength of this team needs to be dribble penetration with the option of lobbing it up to the big guys or kicking it out to the shooters. Fox's strength is his speed. WCS is a massive lob target. Hield is a sharp shooter. Put these guys in those positions to do what they do best. Don't have WCS distributing the ball with Fox standing in the corner and Hield waving a towel from the bench.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#19
#19
ESP47 said:
I meant his offensive sets are slow moving garbage. Not ZBo :p
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Oops.

The Kings weren't really any faster out there regardless of who played. That was the troubling part. I was hoping with the vets resting at the end of the year that they would speed things up but that never happened. Maybe it was because they didn't have time to implement a faster offense but who knows. I just remember Joerger saying before the season that they were going to have a fast motion offense and if there was nothing working, then they'd swing it down to the big fella to go to work. I thought there was an actual fast paced offensive system in place and ZBo was the backup plan in case it didn't work. In reality, it was a slow moving offense and ZBo was the backup plan any time a fast break didn't work....which was 99% of the time.

I know you like to give Joerger the benefit of the doubt but at some point he has to perform. So far we've seen him work against the skills of the majority of the younger players because Fox, WCS and Hield have been misused badly as far as setting them up to succeed. The strength of this team needs to be dribble penetration with the option of lobbing it up to the big guys or kicking it out to the shooters. Fox's strength is his speed. WCS is a massive lob target. Hield is a sharp shooter. Put these guys in those positions to do what they do best. Don't have WCS distributing the ball with Fox standing in the corner and Hield waving a towel from the bench.
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I think/hope/believe we're gonna see a much faster paced offense this season. I also hope and pray that they deal ZBo away as soon as possible. He's a crutch we don't need any longer and I believe he hinders much more than he helps. Take him away and Joerger can't keep defaulting to him.
 
S

swisshh

Starter
#20
#20
The offense has to change or the problems we've seen for years will continue. The bigs have to screen higher than the FT line. There's just not enough space. It's not like Bagley or Willie or Skal aren't lob targets. We're playing these bigs like they're Tim Duncan. They are not that.

People are blaming Frank right now but he's running the system and it doesn't go anywhere. Then everyone tries to take it on themselves.

The pace reflects the system and not the players or the experience.

The most pivotal part of the court is the middle. All the best offenses attack the middle and have to be forced outside. When does this offense attack the middle?
 
King-Biscuit-Time

King-Biscuit-Time

G-League
#21
#21
I feel like the best guys to improve the pacing, spacing, and passing are:

1)Bogs
2) JJ

They don't hold the ball, and they never seem to force anything.

Not sure they're necessarily the best players on the team, but they seem to play the right way.
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#22
#22
It would be nice to see the Kings pick up a nice offensive minded assistant coach.

Someone that has helped coach faster paced offenses before. I'm sure with all the coaching turnover this summer, there are some good offensive assistant coaches still out there.

Besides that, we just have to pray that Coach Joeger can change his offense pace around fast.
 
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Noble

Noble

Bench
#23
#23
People hating on Zbo but the man did his job. When we needed a bucket to keep the games from slipping, from causing a downward spiral of confidence of all the younger guys, he was there. He's not Gasol. Ideally he's off the bench situationaly, glad to still have him on the squad. You can't stop a train.
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#25
#25
Noble said:
People hating on Zbo but the man did his job. When we needed a bucket to keep the games from slipping, from causing a downward spiral of confidence of all the younger guys, he was there. He's not Gasol. Ideally he's off the bench situationaly, glad to still have him on the squad. You can't stop a train.
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I don't think it is so much of "hating on ZBo", but hating on how Joeger centered the offense around ZBo when he was available.

If we could trust Joeger to use ZBo only as a very deep, deep bench big, it would be okay with him as a veteran tutor/mentor.

But it is the constant Joeger offense of going to his safety valve of "slow it down ZBo offense" that most people really dislike.
 
F

Folsomkingsfan

Starter
#29
#29
ockingsfan said:
It would be nice to see the Kings pick up a nice offensive minded assistant coach.

Someone that has helped coach faster paced offenses before. I'm sure with all the coaching turnover this summer, there are some good offensive assistant coaches still out there.

Besides that, we just have to pray that Coach Joeger can change his offense pace around fast.
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I wouldn't mind Monty Williams. Always liked him when he was in NO.
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#30
#30
They looked like they ran in the first SL game with Fox. Joerger has said over and over they want to run, that’s on the players. Fox will be more comfortable to run and have the guys along side him who will want to run.
 
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