2018 draft fits with this team

hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#361
#361
206Fan said:
CP3 and Harden are established proven players that have teamed up. This is an entirely different case. The Kings would have to develop both Fox and Doncic at the same time. I could easily point to the Westbrook-Durant-Harden dilemma. Narrowing it down, just look at Westbrook-Harden. Harden would've never had the chance to break out into a superstar if he had stayed in OKC. The opportunity just didn't present itself because of Westbrook already as the #1 ball handler and lead guard. In this case, one of the players was clearly being held back from reaching his potential no one knew he even had.

With 2 young PGs on the team, how do you make sure both players reach their maximum potentials? You can't. Not in a 2-PG system. The closest development we've seen in a "2-PG" system is Lillard-McCollum, but McCollum is just an undersized SG..not a PG.
It's hard to find examples that work, because I don't think it really works. The only way it would ever work is if Fox improves dramatically as an off-ball player. This means he needs to become a much better 3pt shooter. This also means he'll need to know how to move around without the ball which he hasn't shown yet.


Porter Jr would have the ball in his hands, but I'm talking about solely the PG position. There's no damn way am I going to draft Doncic just to have him play backup to Fox. Nor should anyone draft Doncic to be their starting off-ball SF. He is a PG. How can he play PG when Fox is already dominating the position? People suggest they can share ball handling duties. How does this maximize the talent of either young player? I've heard some posters talk about how long it takes for PGs to get used to the NBA. Oh yeah, then why would you hamper the PGs development by making him play SG? Wouldn't you want the ball in their hands to actually play that position? I don't see that happening.
Again, the Warriors and Rockets are extremely poor examples. The Warriors only have 1 true PG and that's Curry. Draymond is like a Boris Diaw. He's not a POINT-Forward, he's just an elite passer, especially from the highpost. Durant isn't a playmaker. In terms of ball dominant players, that's only Steph and KD. But both can easily play off-ball which presents no problem. As I said above, the Harden-CP3 situation is much different than ours.

I am a huge fan of Doncic. He's my #1/2 prospect. As much as I want him on the Kings, I don't think our current roster is ideal for his development at all. Play Doncic next to a ball dominant PG that can't shoot. Solid SG who does better with the ball in his hands. Solid C that doesn't really space the floor. Not a great fit. It's really not. He'd fit a lot more on a team like Orlando.
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I think you're being narrow-minded here about who these players will become. Fox had a great midrange jumper at Kentucky it's just the long range shots that weren't falling. He's shot 33% from three over the last 2 months and he's just 20 years old. He's not going to be a non-shooter. And from what I've seen he plays very well off the ball, cutting to the basket for dunks nearly every game. No he's not Reggie Miller out there but I don't think he's dominating the ball either. He attacks when he needs to and otherwise keeps the ball moving. He could easily play alongside a point forward like Giannis, Simmons, or LeBron and still be an impact player. I think he's already shown enough potential with his jumper to say that the shooting woes were overblown.

Harden and Westbrook failing to reach their potential together in OKC was all about money not overlapping skillsets. They didn't want to pay Harden because they thought keeping Serge Ibaka was more important. Harden was 22 his last year in OKC and had one year left on his rookie deal. Hardly anybody reaches their peak at 22 years old. People also said Curry and Durant wouldn't get enough shots playing together (I was one of them) and that hasn't been true at all. Both guys are even more scary now because you can't help off anyone on defense.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You're thinking each team gets one elite PG and anything more than that means the other guy is a backup or forced to play out of position. Just forget about positions for a minute. An offense functions efficiently when you have players who can move the ball and create openings in the defense and then exploit those openings by knocking down shots. If you have 3 players on the floor who can all create shots off the dribble and they can all make open shots then whoever has the ball at that time is the PG and the other two guys are his shooters/cutters finishing off the possession. Maybe that means you have 3 players averaging 5-6 assists per game instead of 1 averaging 8 or 9 but is that actually a problem? If the team is winning it'll be obvious to everyone what's going on statistically and the stats really only matter for discussions like this. The winning is all that actually matters. Nobody thinks less of Scottie Pippin because he spent the best part of his career as Jordan's wingmate and never averaged monster numbers. or even if they do, he's got 6 rings and he's in the Hall of Fame... I don't think he cares.
 
Telemachus

Telemachus

Starter
#362
#362
The_Jamal said:
Yep you hit this right on the head. The Warriors especially stagger their rotations where usually KD and Klay are on the floor to start the 2nd and 4th quarters against the other teams bench. Likewise with Chris Paul. That's such a ridiculous talent gap and team advantage for 10-12 minutes a game.

And I'll just never get to a point where I think MORE playmaking on the floor is a bad thing. Not after seeing the Heat (Wade/Bron/Bosh), GSW (Steph,Dray, then Steph, KD, Dray), and Cleveland (Bron and Kyrie) have all dominated this decade by having multiple elite offensive playmakers on the floor.
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Don't forget about the Kings with Bibby, Christie, Webber and Vlade. :D
 
Telemachus

Telemachus

Starter
#363
#363
hrdboild said:
I think you're being narrow-minded here about who these players will become. Fox had a great midrange jumper at Kentucky it's just the long range shots that weren't falling. He's shot 33% from three over the last 2 months and he's just 20 years old. He's not going to be a non-shooter. And from what I've seen he plays very well off the ball, cutting to the basket for dunks nearly every game. No he's not Reggie Miller out there but I don't think he's dominating the ball either. He attacks when he needs to and otherwise keeps the ball moving. He could easily play alongside a point forward like Giannis, Simmons, or LeBron and still be an impact player. I think he's already shown enough potential with his jumper to say that the shooting woes were overblown.

Harden and Westbrook failing to reach their potential together in OKC was all about money not overlapping skillsets. They didn't want to pay Harden because they thought keeping Serge Ibaka was more important. Harden was 22 his last year in OKC and had one year left on his rookie deal. Hardly anybody reaches their peak at 22 years old. People also said Curry and Durant wouldn't get enough shots playing together (I was one of them) and that hasn't been true at all. Both guys are even more scary now because you can't help off anyone on defense.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You're thinking each team gets one elite PG and anything more than that means the other guy is a backup or forced to play out of position. Just forget about positions for a minute. An offense functions efficiently when you have players who can move the ball and create openings in the defense and then exploit those openings by knocking down shots. If you have 3 players on the floor who can all create shots off the dribble and they can all make open shots then whoever has the ball at that time is the PG and the other two guys are his shooters/cutters finishing off the possession. Maybe that means you have 3 players averaging 5-6 assists per game instead of 1 averaging 8 or 9 but is that actually a problem? If the team is winning it'll be obvious to everyone what's going on statistically and the stats really only matter for discussions like this. The winning is all that actually matters. Nobody thinks less of Scottie Pippin because he spent the best part of his career as Jordan's wingmate and never averaged monster numbers. or even if they do, he's got 6 rings and he's in the Hall of Fame... I don't think he cares.
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To back up your point, Bibby averaged 8.1 & 8.4 assists his last 2 years in Vancouver. With the Kings he generally averaged in the 5-6 assists range. Most would consider those the best years of his career.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#364
#364
Suicide King said:
How do you feel about the prospect of Markelle Fultz and Ben Simmons ? Was Fultz taken #1 overall to play back up for Simmons?
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Maybe you didn't watch a lot of Markelle at UW, but he can legitimately play either position at PG or SG. Fox can't. Markelle was an elite shooter at Washington making something like 40% of his 3pters. He can play off-ball extremely well if needed. On the other hand, Fox has struggled massively when paired with George Hill. He's barely shooting 30% from 3pters this year on a low sample.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#365
#365
hrdboild said:
I think you're being narrow-minded here about who these players will become. Fox had a great midrange jumper at Kentucky it's just the long range shots that weren't falling. He's shot 33% from three over the last 2 months and he's just 20 years old. He's not going to be a non-shooter. And from what I've seen he plays very well off the ball, cutting to the basket for dunks nearly every game. No he's not Reggie Miller out there but I don't think he's dominating the ball either. He attacks when he needs to and otherwise keeps the ball moving. He could easily play alongside a point forward like Giannis, Simmons, or LeBron and still be an impact player. I think he's already shown enough potential with his jumper to say that the shooting woes were overblown.

Harden and Westbrook failing to reach their potential together in OKC was all about money not overlapping skillsets. They didn't want to pay Harden because they thought keeping Serge Ibaka was more important. Harden was 22 his last year in OKC and had one year left on his rookie deal. Hardly anybody reaches their peak at 22 years old. People also said Curry and Durant wouldn't get enough shots playing together (I was one of them) and that hasn't been true at all. Both guys are even more scary now because you can't help off anyone on defense.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You're thinking each team gets one elite PG and anything more than that means the other guy is a backup or forced to play out of position. Just forget about positions for a minute. An offense functions efficiently when you have players who can move the ball and create openings in the defense and then exploit those openings by knocking down shots. If you have 3 players on the floor who can all create shots off the dribble and they can all make open shots then whoever has the ball at that time is the PG and the other two guys are his shooters/cutters finishing off the possession. Maybe that means you have 3 players averaging 5-6 assists per game instead of 1 averaging 8 or 9 but is that actually a problem? If the team is winning it'll be obvious to everyone what's going on statistically and the stats really only matter for discussions like this. The winning is all that actually matters. Nobody thinks less of Scottie Pippin because he spent the best part of his career as Jordan's wingmate and never averaged monster numbers. or even if they do, he's got 6 rings and he's in the Hall of Fame... I don't think he cares.
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I highly doubt a Fox-Doncic-Bogdan thing would workout, but whatever. Not a discussion worth debating anymore because nothing will change my mind until I see more shooting ability from Fox.

Makes no sense to draft a franchise player in Doncic and put him next to a player that doesn't fit him at all. But ok. They'd have to learn to co-exist as PGs with 1 player getting their ball handling duties cut in 1/2.

Harden went from a 16.8ppg scorer to a 25.9ppg scorer. There's no way in hell he would've had that opportunity in OKC with Westbrook and Durant. There's no point in even arguing it. Yes they didn't want to pay him, but he wasn't going to get 20FGAs like he did in Houston.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#366
#366
206Fan said:
I highly doubt a Fox-Doncic-Bogdan thing would workout, but whatever. Not a discussion worth debating anymore because nothing will change my mind until I see more shooting ability from Fox.

Makes no sense to draft a franchise player in Doncic and put him next to a player that doesn't fit him at all. But ok. They'd have to learn to co-exist as PGs with 1 player getting their ball handling duties cut in 1/2.

Harden went from a 16.8ppg scorer to a 25.9ppg scorer. There's no way in hell he would've had that opportunity in OKC with Westbrook and Durant. There's no point in even arguing it. Yes they didn't want to pay him, but he wasn't going to get 20FGAs like he did in Houston.
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Wait so don’t draft a franchise player
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#369
#369
206Fan said:
I highly doubt a Fox-Doncic-Bogdan thing would workout, but whatever. Not a discussion worth debating anymore because nothing will change my mind until I see more shooting ability from Fox.

Makes no sense to draft a franchise player in Doncic and put him next to a player that doesn't fit him at all. But ok. They'd have to learn to co-exist as PGs with 1 player getting their ball handling duties cut in 1/2.

Harden went from a 16.8ppg scorer to a 25.9ppg scorer. There's no way in hell he would've had that opportunity in OKC with Westbrook and Durant. There's no point in even arguing it. Yes they didn't want to pay him, but he wasn't going to get 20FGAs like he did in Houston.
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If your only measure of success is PPG then I think you're missing the point here. Maybe in terms of "image" it would benefit both players to have their own team and throw up a ton of shots... maybe. That didn't work out too well for DeMarcus though did it? Nobody cares unless you're winning and more and more there is no such thing as a winning team with one superstar on it.
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#370
#370
I wouldn't put Doncic on the rock over Fox, he can create so many easy scoring opportunities for others once there is more talented guys on the floor with him and the current crop grow into their own.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#371
#371
This is our no brained pick if we fall out the top 5 all nba defender Jarren Jackson

Shooting splits 57/44/80 that’s 80% on 5 attempts while blocking 3.3 shots in 23mpg. What makes him an all world defender besides shooting blocking is he is an elite perimeter and pick and roll defender. Also players his age don’t have the defensive awareness that this kid has he has that Jokiam Noah Kevin’s garnett. Proof of this is he leads the nation in defensive plus minus star that’s absurd for a freshman. He’s basically blocking the same amount of shots as Bamba with wing like athleticism. Recently he’s been taking it to the rim too so you add that to an elite shooter and he can be a 15-10 all nba defender.



https://twitter.com/cbbonfox/status/955647699289653249?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^ios|twgr^other

https://twitter.com/cbbonfox/status/955647699289653249

Look at that he’s allegedly raw and he’s on the perimeter crossing people up between the legs to the basket for an and 1. SCARY
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#372
#372
Joshoua said:
This is our no brained pick if we fall out the top 5 all nba defender Jarren Jackson

Shooting splits 57/44/80 that’s 80% on 5 attempts while blocking 3.3 shots in 23mpg. What makes him an all world defender besides shooting blocking is he is an elite perimeter and pick and roll defender. Also players his age don’t have the defensive awareness that this kid has he has that Jokiam Noah Kevin’s garnett. Proof of this is he leads the nation in defensive plus minus star that’s absurd for a freshman. He’s basically blocking the same amount of shots as Bamba with wing like athleticism. Recently he’s been taking it to the rim too so you add that to an elite shooter and he can be a 15-10 all nba defender.



https://twitter.com/cbbonfox/status/955647699289653249?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^ios|twgr^other

https://twitter.com/cbbonfox/status/955647699289653249

Look at that he’s allegedly raw and he’s on the perimeter crossing people up between the legs to the basket for an and 1. SCARY
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With the Brooklyn pick, I think the Cavs could definitely use him (considering their current defensive situation ;))

If they get Hill from us this year, they could roll out a Hill/LeBron/Crowder/Love/Jackson starting 5 next year. If Crowder gets back to playing defense at a high level and LeBron decides to put effort in on that side of the ball, you have 4 above average defenders in that lineup. Then LeBron has Hill, Crowder, Love, & Jackson who could all be 40% 3pt shooters. Lastly, the sheer size & athleticism of that team in general would give people fits. They would out muscle out rebound basically any other team while finally having a legit rim protector in Jackson.

Enough talk about the Cavs, back to the Kings...
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#373
#373
Joshoua said:
This is our no brained pick if we fall out the top 5 all nba defender Jarren Jackson

Shooting splits 57/44/80 that’s 80% on 5 attempts while blocking 3.3 shots in 23mpg. What makes him an all world defender besides shooting blocking is he is an elite perimeter and pick and roll defender. Also players his age don’t have the defensive awareness that this kid has he has that Jokiam Noah Kevin’s garnett. Proof of this is he leads the nation in defensive plus minus star that’s absurd for a freshman. He’s basically blocking the same amount of shots as Bamba with wing like athleticism. Recently he’s been taking it to the rim too so you add that to an elite shooter and he can be a 15-10 all nba defender.



https://twitter.com/cbbonfox/status/955647699289653249?ref_src=twcamp^share|twsrc^ios|twgr^other

https://twitter.com/cbbonfox/status/955647699289653249

Look at that he’s allegedly raw and he’s on the perimeter crossing people up between the legs to the basket for an and 1. SCARY
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I saw this posted on another forum and thought it was interesting:

In conference play and per 100 possessions Jackson is now averaging more points than Bagley (35.8 to 33.7), on higher TS% than Ayton (75.9 to 67.6), and more blocks than Bamba (9.7 to 8.2).

Of course he also clearly averages the most fouls preventing him from actually playing as much as the other guys (only 24.5 MPG compared to 32-35 MPG for the other three big men) but he's been amazing recently. Not only his averages but also some of the plays he's made have been incredible.
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That's pretty eye opening when you think about it.
 
kingsfan1984

kingsfan1984

Starter
#374
#374
I can see in todays team concept that Jackson can be the better player in terms of leading to more wins than Ayton. I would happily trade down with Boston, giving them Ayton in exchange for Brown, Jacksom and possibly another future 1st?
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#375
#375
kingsfan1984 said:
I can see in todays team concept that Jackson can be the better player in terms of leading to more wins than Ayton. I would happily trade down with Boston, giving them Ayton in exchange for Brown, Jacksom and possibly another future 1st?
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Let’s not get carried away Ayton just has to be average defender and he’s a beast
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#376
#376
206Fan said:
Maybe you didn't watch a lot of Markelle at UW, but he can legitimately play either position at PG or SG. Fox can't. Markelle was an elite shooter at Washington making something like 40% of his 3pters. He can play off-ball extremely well if needed. On the other hand, Fox has struggled massively when paired with George Hill. He's barely shooting 30% from 3pters this year on a low sample.
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As I've said in the past, you tend to speak in absolutes, which means your basing all your predictions on the now, and not what could, and is likely to be. I'm sick and tired of listing all the players in past history that couldn't shoot well from the three, or prior to the three point shot, couldn't hit a jumper, that went on to be great shooters and HOF players. Players are freaking individuals, and your simply picking out the one's that failed and holding that up as an absolute. The idea that two highly skilled players can't play together because of their skill level, borders on insanity. To win in today's NBA you need to be a a skilled player, and the more of them you have on your team, the better your team is going to be. The more one dimensional players you have on your team, the worse your team is going to be.

The idea that because you have two players, or even five players on your team that are play makers, means that they won't be able to play together is one of the most illogical ideas that I've ever heard, and pure nonsense. The only way it wouldn't work is if one or any of those players is a selfish player. Which once again brings us back to individual personalities. Look at the problem that the Cav's are having right now. The problem isn't that their players are too skilled, but that someone or more than one is upset about how many times he touches the ball. No player can be too skilled, and no team can have too many skilled players. And that has nothing to do with the mental makeup of individual players. Players aren't robots! They go to the bathroom just like us. They get up in the morning and don't feel like going to work sometimes. They have stress from non-related basketball issues. And some only care about their own stats and fame. Avoid them, and you'll have no problem.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#377
#377
twslam07 said:
I saw this posted on another forum and thought it was interesting:



That's pretty eye opening when you think about it.
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I have moved Jackson (Jaren) up on my list. There were some questions I had about his handles, and about why he lived on the perimeter. The answer to the latter is that with Ward firmly planted down low, and not capable of anything else offensively, and with Bridges scoring most of his baskets at the basket, there isn't much room for Jackson's offense down low. Add in that he's a very very good three point shooter, and it's obvious that Mich St. is using him to help spread the floor. That doesn't give him much of an opportunity to showcase his other skills, if he does indeed have them. The ballhandling question was answered for me in his last couple of games when he decided to show them off. One such display made the ESPN highlight reel when he did everything but make coffee with the ball before blowing by his defender with an explosive dunk. I now firmly believe that he's the total and real deal. I now have him at number three on my board. This is going to be a very good draft!
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#378
#378
Some games of interest to watch today:

Oklahoma and Trey Young go up against Collin Sexton and Alabama today on ESPN at 11:15 AM pacific time.
Kansas who was recently beaten by Oklahoma goes up against Texas A&M with Robert Williams, who personally has been a disappointment to me this season at 1:30 PM pacific on ESPN.
Kentucky, who is in a must win situation goes up against a very very good team in W. Virginia currently ranked #7 at 4:00 PM pacific on ESPN.
And finally, Boise St. with Chandler Hutchison (hidden gem) goes up against Air Force at 7:00 PM on ESPNU

Both Arizona and Texas play today as well. Don't have the times in front of me. I've seen both team play so many times already that I'm done until the tournament, and that's if Texas makes it into the tournament.
 
kingsfan1984

kingsfan1984

Starter
#379
#379
bajaden said:
I have moved Jackson (Jaren) up on my list. There were some questions I had about his handles, and about why he lived on the perimeter. The answer to the latter is that with Ward firmly planted down low, and not capable of anything else offensively, and with Bridges scoring most of his baskets at the basket, there isn't much room for Jackson's offense down low. Add in that he's a very very good three point shooter, and it's obvious that Mich St. is using him to help spread the floor. That doesn't give him much of an opportunity to showcase his other skills, if he does indeed have them. The ballhandling question was answered for me in his last couple of games when he decided to show them off. One such display made the ESPN highlight reel when he did everything but make coffee with the ball before blowing by his defender with an explosive dunk. I now firmly believe that he's the total and real deal. I now have him at number three on my board. This is going to be a very good draft!
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Im hoping we get the #1 pick and trade it with Ayton to move back 2 or 3 slots and get Jackson. The cost for whatever team to move up a few spots will be substantial im guessing.

Jackson has displayed an increadible feel for the game, especially on the defensive side and frm 3pt line. He is the youngest of the top draft guys too. how he plays fits right into any team scheme that team wants to run....unlike Ayton who seems to fit an oldschool system beat which hasnt seen succuss in recent memory in the NBA.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#384
#384
Trae Young is s monster dude should get 3-5 more assists than he’s getting but his team is trash. Bama was doubling him at half court and when they didn’t they paid for it
 
F

Folsomkingsfan

Starter
#385
#385
I'll take any of Ayton, Bagley, Porter, Doncic, Jackson, or Young tbh. Our team has so many holes right now that anyone of these guys could step in and start contributing immediately.
 
C

Cojc

Bench
#386
#386
Watched the duke game and then the first half of the Arizona game.
Bagley was very impressive. Ayton did not see much.

It was just one game each that I had watched them but Duke looked the to run their offense through Bagley and Carter and even so they lost, Bagleys 3 at the end was very nice.

Ayton was just hanging out a lot and not really mobile and I did not see him trying to get position very often to post up.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#387
#387
Cojc said:
Watched the duke game and then the first half of the Arizona game.
Bagley was very impressive. Ayton did not see much.

It was just one game each that I had watched them but Duke looked the to run their offense through Bagley and Carter and even so they lost, Bagleys 3 at the end was very nice.

Ayton was just hanging out a lot and not really mobile and I did not see him trying to get position very often to post up.
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That’s one of Aytons weakness he floats and thinks he’s a stretch 4
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#388
#388
Cojc said:
Watched the duke game and then the first half of the Arizona game.
Bagley was very impressive. Ayton did not see much.

It was just one game each that I had watched them but Duke looked the to run their offense through Bagley and Carter and even so they lost, Bagleys 3 at the end was very nice.

Ayton was just hanging out a lot and not really mobile and I did not see him trying to get position very often to post up.
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Yeah, Ayton tends to become a spectator at times. Frustrating to watch. He certainly has the talent and the ability to be a very very good player. Rest is up to him.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#390
#390
bajaden said:
Yeah, Ayton tends to become a spectator at times. Frustrating to watch. He certainly has the talent and the ability to be a very very good player. Rest is up to him.
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In that sense, Ayton sorta reminds me of Andre Drummond. Obviously very different situations because Ayton is miles ahead of where Drummond ever was as a prospect but both guys sorta faced effort questions in college. In Drummond's case, it wound up being a nonstarter because he turned out to be a much better NBA player than college player. Hopefully, the same thing happens with Ayton.
 
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