Kings making Rudy available for trade?

hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#121
#121
Eric Gordon is a free agent at the end of this season and New Orleans is heading to the draft lotto so he's expendable. I posed the idea last April of trying to acquire him mid-season for this very reason however you have to find a way to match his 15.5 million dollar salary to make it happen. That would have required us to keep Thompson and Landry or trade one of them for a comparable contract. Trading Rudy Gay for Eric Gordon is basically a Rudy Gay salary dump to which I say... keep things in perspective. He's not a perfect player but he's worth a heck of a lot more to this team than half a year of Eric Gordon.

Not to mention, Eric Gordon is shooting 37% from three this season and 41% from the field. Ben McLemore is shooting 37% from three this season and 46% from the field. If we really think Eric Gordon is the answer for us maybe we should try getting Ben 12 shots a game first and see what happens. Cause that's essentially what we would be doing -- giving away an effective player in exchange for a less efficient Ben McLemore.

I don't know if we're actually trying to trade Rudy Gay or if this is one more case of agents/rival GMs making use of our reputation to further their own goals. I'll decide to be outraged at a later time if something actually happens that I don't agree with. In the meantime I think talk of trading Rudy Gay is extremely pre-mature. We are not a playoff team with or without Rudy Gay until we solve the head coach problem.
 
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JoseCousins

Guest
#123
#123
hrdboild said:
Eric Gordon is a free agent at the end of this season and New Orleans is heading to the draft lotto so he's expendable. I posed the idea last April of trying to acquire him mid-season for this very reason however you have to find a way to match his 15.5 million dollar salary to make it happen. That would have required us to keep Thompson and Landry or trade one of them for a comparable contract. Trading Rudy Gay for Eric Gordon is basically a Rudy Gay salary dump to which I say... keep things in perspective. He's not a perfect player but he's worth a heck of a lot more to this team than half a year of Eric Gordon.

Not to mention, Eric Gordon is shooting 37% from three this season and 41% from the field. Ben McLemore is shooting 37% from three this season and 46% from the field. If we really think Eric Gordon is the answer for us maybe we should try getting Ben 12 shots a game first and see what happens. Cause that's essentially what we would be doing -- giving away an effective player in exchange for a less efficient Ben McLemore.

I don't know if we're actually trying to trade Rudy Gay or if this is one more case of agents/rival GMs making use of our reputation to further their own goals. I'll decide to be outraged at a later time if something actually happens that I don't agree with. In the meantime I think talk of trading Rudy Gay is extremely pre-mature. We are not a playoff team with or without Rudy Gay until we solve the head coach problem.
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I'm not sure anybody other than McLemore can make him shoot more.
 
Blob

Blob

Starter
#124
#124
JoseCousins said:
... maybe we should try getting Ben 12 shots a game first and see what happens.
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Ben needs to go GET his shot. I guarantee if Seth Curry was given Ben's minutes he would get more FGAs (and score more) because he is the more creative and confident scorer.

I still have hope in Ben because he is only 22 but he's played a lot of NBA minutes and too often looks like he is on roller skates.

The time for him to make a statement as an NBA player is now....with or w/o plays being called for him.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#125
#125
swisshh said:
I'm a little bit worried about the locker room and down-the-road effects from it. Rudy fits in with Cousins and Rondo, two guys that not many may vibe with.

I understand his defensive intensity or focus hasn't always been there, and that he's struggled earlier this year. (But has been better lately, like much of the team.) On the other side of that struggle is the point that you're trading a solid #2/#3 guy in hope of a defensive role player. That's quite a trade-off.
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If DMC is here to win than this whole lockerroom crap that keeps being brought up really does not matter, if the Kings make a trade that makes the team better now and in the near future and it invovles Rudy or Rondo or whoever than the whole locker room argument is rubbish. The Toronto Raptors players were literally crying when Rudy got traded.....didn't effect them.

We right now are not even a top 16 team in the entire NBA and would probably be far worse if the Nuggets/Pelicans/Utah had not been ravaged by injury. The locker room argument does not apply when your 7 games below 500. in a weaker conference and have been as inconsistant as the team has been.
 
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Livinthedream

All-Star
#126
#126
Blob said:
Ben needs to go GET his shot. I guarantee if Seth Curry was given Ben's minutes he would get more FGAs (and score more) because he is the more creative and confident scorer.

I still have hope in Ben because he is only 22 but he's played a lot of NBA minutes and too often looks like he is on roller skates.

The time for him to make a statement as an NBA player is now....with or w/o plays being called for him.
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Well, it's a team sport. So how often a player touches the ball and has opportunities to shoot are directly tied to the team, if you're not the PG or a superstar. With the starters, Rondo handles the ball until he gives it to Cuz or Rudy. Cuz and Rudy typically shoot the ball once they get it. So, if Curry played with the starters, they are not going to defer to Curry and change the offense. He will be sitting in the corner just like Ben, staying out of the way. Every now and then, the team will start the game by running a few plays for Ben. Running him off screens and he generally scores. Then the team goes back to the Rondo, Cuz and Rudy show. There is almost nothing Ben can do about it. I see him clap his hands and call for the ball and still doesn't get it. Can't say it's because he can't shoot. He's hitting his shots. He's just not part of the offense.

Now when the bench comes in, the game plan changes. It's pace, pace, pace, chuck and shoot time. This is at the direction of the coaches. It's why Belli and even Collison are playing selfish and chucking up shots when they come in as reserves. It's their role. When Marco started the 3rd quarter against the Pelicans, his role changed and he became "invisible" as well with the starters.

SG is an underutilized position on this team. Not because of the player, but because of the style. Our three best players hold the ball, because that's their game. Cuz and Rudy RARELY if ever kick the ball out to the guards when they get in deep and are double and triple teamed. Since we as a team don't utilize all positions, PF and SG are essentially placeholders. No matter how many times you shuffle players at that position, the results don't change. The only way for it to change is if we get a SG that is better than out PG, C and PF. And that player is not out there to be had.

To bring it back around to topic on hand. If we are OK with Casspi at the 3, and I am if he continues shooting the way he has, then trading Gay to net a SG or PF that would not be a placeholder is a good idea. Getting rid of Gay might give another player to break out that is already here.
 
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hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#127
#127
Blob said:
Ben needs to go GET his shot. I guarantee if Seth Curry was given Ben's minutes he would get more FGAs (and score more) because he is the more creative and confident scorer.

I still have hope in Ben because he is only 22 but he's played a lot of NBA minutes and too often looks like he is on roller skates.

The time for him to make a statement as an NBA player is now....with or w/o plays being called for him.
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The question I have for all of the people who think Ben needs to go out there and "get his shot" is whether you would feel the same way if we had say Steve Kerr on the team. Or Kyle Korver. Or Reggie Miller. There seems to be an assumption behind that statement that a guard is not functional offensively unless they can create their own shot off the dribble. Up to this point it's been a pretty commonly accepted practice in organized 5-on-5 basketball to have shooters who don't create their own shot but instead move to a spot on the floor and wait for the ball. Some might even say it's ideal to balance a ball-dominant guard with a designated shooter. Classically speaking, that's what the positional delegations POINT guard and SHOOTING guard refer to.

In fact, to illustrate the point, recall that under Paul Westphal we had an offensive scheme composed almost entirely of guards looking to create their own shot (the Tyreke Evans, Marcus Thornton, Isaiah Thomas three-headed monster) and far short of striking fear into the hearts of opposing defenses, it was a nightly train wreck of bruised egos and poor shot selection. I'm not excusing Ben's lack of confidence or passive nature, if that is where his continued lack of productivity stems from. I just don't think there's anything innate about his skillset which is holding him back.

Rondo, Collison, and Marco are all veterans. Seth is a preternaturally confident rookie who averaged 17 shots per game in the D-League last season and his big brother happens to be the reigning league MVP. Now look at Ben -- a gifted shooter who functions best in a structured offense. Even in college where he was the young star on a team of mostly upper-class men he deferred to his teammates more often than not. In the NBA he's on his third head coach in 3 years. So while I would like to see Ben be more aggressive about getting to his spots and calling for the ball, the last thing I want to see from him is the kind of unconscious shot taking many of his teammates have availed themselves to. He doesn't need to "get his" so much as he needs to realize that his role requires him to take 8-10 quality shots every game. The same kinds of shots he's already taking. And maybe we could, you know, try running a stagger screen play for him once in awhile.
 
R

randymoss1881

Starter
#128
#128
If NO wants Gay that bad than id offer Gay/Ben/Curry for Anderson Gordon/Gee

Rondo/Collison
Gordon/Marco
Casspi/Gee
Anderson
Boogie/WCS

And before people say anderson cripples WCS growth the mpg can be split DMC:34mpg, Anderson 31mpg, WCS: 30mpg

The starting lineup has all the shooting in the world and Gordon and Casspi are just as good if not better defenders than Ben and Gay.
 
Flopi

Flopi

Bench
#129
#129
Don't know if realistic but I would do a trade centered around Gay+McLemore for Nicolas Batum.
It could also be a sign & trade with the Hornets since Batum is a UFA next summer.
I like Batum a lot: long, versatile, good defender, good passer, can shoot the 3, can play the 2 and 3 spot...
At the end of the day, I think a Batum/Casspi duo is better than McLemore/Gay.
 
KingsFanGER

KingsFanGER

Starter
#130
#130
Flopi said:
Don't know if realistic but I would do a trade centered around Gay+McLemore for Nicolas Batum.
It could also be a sign & trade with the Hornets since Batum is a UFA next summer.
I like Batum a lot: long, versatile, good defender, good passer, can shoot the 3, can play the 2 and 3 spot...
At the end of the day, I think a Batum/Casspi duo is better than McLemore/Gay.
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No doubt. But would we be able to resign Batum? Would the Hornets part ways with him, while there are chances they make the playoffs?
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#131
#131
randymoss1881 said:
If NO wants Gay that bad than id offer Gay/Ben/Curry for Anderson Gordon/Gee

Rondo/Collison
Gordon/Marco
Casspi/Gee
Anderson
Boogie/WCS

And before people say anderson cripples WCS growth the mpg can be split DMC:34mpg, Anderson 31mpg, WCS: 30mpg

The starting lineup has all the shooting in the world and Gordon and Casspi are just as good if not better defenders than Ben and Gay.
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To make it work you would have to throw in 2k instead of Curry which I have zero issue doing we overpaid for him you got guys that do the same thing at a fraction of the cost out there like O Quinn, Jeff Whitey, Kris Humpries, Biyombo, Miles Plumlee.

But that's a trade I would do since it would force Karl to play WCS and Acy and giving us 3 catch and shoot guys next to Cousins and Rondo. The Pelicans actually need a C since Asik is beyond trash and Kosta would help them more than he's helping us.
 
IfAt1st

IfAt1st

Starter
#132
#132
Livinthedream said:
Cuz and Rudy RARELY if ever kick the ball out to the guards when they get in deep and are double and triple teamed. Since we as a team don't utilize all positions, PF and SG are essentially placeholders. No matter how many times you shuffle players at that position, the results don't change. The only way for it to change is if we get a SG that is better than out PG, C and PF.
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You make it out like this year is Cuz and Ben's first year together.
I distinctly recall that for 2 years, Cuz fed McLemore untold number of wide open shots, in various game circumstances, and without much fail, Ben missed the open shot.

How many years would you rely on someone before giving up on them and changing your approach to being more self-reliant?
Cuz has had a career of unreliable and inferior teammates that have let him down in almost every game situation that they've been depended on.

I don't blame him for having on-the-court trust issues.
 
SacTownGrantFan

SacTownGrantFan

Bench
#134
#134
This irritates me because Rudy is not the problem. Maybe he will turn out to be one problem, but the way things are now it's not even clear yet. The defense is such a disaster.

Sure, maybe a trade could bring a better-fitting piece. But a distraction from the real problem (team defense) is also begging to stir up more chaos. Something that we Kings fans have gotten our fill of many times over. Just keep Rudy here and solve the larger issue first.

What worries me is if this trade effort is an attempt to better fit Karl's system. Ugh. If this front office has any sense whatsoever of how to be a real winner, they will trash the system at the end of the season.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#135
#135
Albatros said:
Don't like moving rudy bar an all star coming back. Moving Ben for a better defender wouldn't bother me though.
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So you want to trade a guy that's never been an All Star for a All Star? Your not getting e legit All Star for Rudy (unless that All Star is way past there prime and on the decline e.g Noah).
 
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biltalent

biltalent

Starter
#136
#136
SacTownGrantFan said:
This irritates me because Rudy is not the problem. Maybe he will turn out to be one problem, but the way things are now it's not even clear yet. The defense is such a disaster.

Sure, maybe a trade could bring a better-fitting piece. But a distraction from the real problem (team defense) is also begging to stir up more chaos. Something that we Kings fans have gotten our fill of many times over. Just keep Rudy here and solve the larger issue first.

What worries me is if this trade effort is an attempt to better fit Karl's system. Ugh. If this front office has any sense whatsoever of how to be a real winner, they will trash the system at the end of the season.
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I agree with you. If we trade Rudy, then I want to get at least one tough, defensive player back that can play 20+ minutes every night. This is why I would rather trade with Chicago than New Orleans. They at least can offer us Gibson+Snell for Rudy + J. Anderson.
 
J

JoseCousins

Guest
#138
#138
Livinthedream said:
Well, it's a team sport. So how often a player touches the ball and has opportunities to shoot are directly tied to the team, if you're not the PG or a superstar. With the starters, Rondo handles the ball until he gives it to Cuz or Rudy. Cuz and Rudy typically shoot the ball once they get it. So, if Curry played with the starters, they are not going to defer to Curry and change the offense. He will be sitting in the corner just like Ben, staying out of the way. Every now and then, the team will start the game by running a few plays for Ben. Running him off screens and he generally scores. Then the team goes back to the Rondo, Cuz and Rudy show. There is almost nothing Ben can do about it. I see him clap his hands and call for the ball and still doesn't get it. Can't say it's because he can't shoot. He's hitting his shots. He's just not part of the offense.

Now when the bench comes in, the game plan changes. It's pace, pace, pace, chuck and shoot time. This is at the direction of the coaches. It's why Belli and even Collison are playing selfish and chucking up shots when they come in as reserves. It's their role. When Marco started the 3rd quarter against the Pelicans, his role changed and he became "invisible" as well with the starters.

SG is an underutilized position on this team. Not because of the player, but because of the style. Our three best players hold the ball, because that's their game. Cuz and Rudy RARELY if ever kick the ball out to the guards when they get in deep and are double and triple teamed. Since we as a team don't utilize all positions, PF and SG are essentially placeholders. No matter how many times you shuffle players at that position, the results don't change. The only way for it to change is if we get a SG that is better than out PG, C and PF. And that player is not out there to be had.

To bring it back around to topic on hand. If we are OK with Casspi at the 3, and I am if he continues shooting the way he has, then trading Gay to net a SG or PF that would not be a placeholder is a good idea. Getting rid of Gay might give another player to break out that is already here.
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This is not true at all. Ben has put up a ton of shots in some games during the first half and disappeared in the second. The system does not deny Ben the ball. Ben needs to demand the ball more consistently. Will that win more games? Who know but we will see what he really is once and for all as a player
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#139
#139
upinsmoke said:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/1/15/10777974/joakim-noah-injury-shoulder-dislocation-chicago-bulls Noah's out for a while.
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I think he's done for the season, and probably done as a Chicago Bull. He's already attempted a comeback and reinjured the shoulder. Maybe he could try to come back in 2 months but as an impending free agent there's not much incentive for him to sacrifice his own career for the team. Chicago has Gibson, Mirotic, Gasol, and Portis - they're not going to want to pay Noah to come back nor will he want to reup for a diminished role.

If we had Thibs than Noah would be an interesting option for us in the off-season but it looks like we may have dragged our feet into watching him coach the Nets instead.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14578734/brooklyn-nets-interested-tom-thibodeau-coaching-vacancy
 
S

swisshh

Starter
#140
#140
KingMilz said:
If DMC is here to win than this whole lockerroom crap that keeps being brought up really does not matter, if the Kings make a trade that makes the team better now and in the near future and it invovles Rudy or Rondo or whoever than the whole locker room argument is rubbish. The Toronto Raptors players were literally crying when Rudy got traded.....didn't effect them.

We right now are not even a top 16 team in the entire NBA and would probably be far worse if the Nuggets/Pelicans/Utah had not been ravaged by injury. The locker room argument does not apply when your 7 games below 500. in a weaker conference and have been as inconsistant as the team has been.
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I generally agree, but the locker room is a part of winning. Though you've had locker room chemistry that isn't the best and teams won. (Kobe/Shaq Lakers, current Rockets)
 
Showtime

Showtime

Starter
#141
#141
Rudy may have his flaws, but his production is a STEAL with his contract next year. If you move him, package him up in a deal to get a legit #2 offensive player.

Honestly, I'd love to see the Kings go after Wall and pair him up with Boogie, and let Rondo move on.
 
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Livinthedream

All-Star
#142
#142
JoseCousins said:
This is not true at all. Ben has put up a ton of shots in some games during the first half and disappeared in the second. The system does not deny Ben the ball. Ben needs to demand the ball more consistently. Will that win more games? Who know but we will see what he really is once and for all as a player
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What part is not true? I gave multiple reasons why the SG spot is the way it is on this team.
 
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Livinthedream

All-Star
#143
#143
IfAt1st said:
You make it out like this year is Cuz and Ben's first year together.
I distinctly recall that for 2 years, Cuz fed McLemore untold number of wide open shots, in various game circumstances, and without much fail, Ben missed the open shot.

How many years would you rely on someone before giving up on them and changing your approach to being more self-reliant?
Cuz has had a career of unreliable and inferior teammates that have let him down in almost every game situation that they've been depended on.

I don't blame him for having on-the-court trust issues.
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I was speaking of the guard spot in general. But regardless, Ben has never taken a ton of shots per game. Not sure why people keep saying that. Every 20 games or so they throw him a bone and run a couple plays for him in the 1st qtr but never come back to it.

And all players miss open shots. Including Cousins. So not passing the ball when you're triple teamed and missing that shot is absolutely not better than passing the ball to an open man. Having 2 players on our team with that approach, Cuz and Rudy, will not allow us to be a free flowing ball moving team. You can't have it both ways.
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#146
#146
randymoss1881 said:
If NO wants Gay that bad than id offer Gay/Ben/Curry for Anderson Gordon/Gee

Rondo/Collison
Gordon/Marco
Casspi/Gee
Anderson
Boogie/WCS

And before people say anderson cripples WCS growth the mpg can be split DMC:34mpg, Anderson 31mpg, WCS: 30mpg

The starting lineup has all the shooting in the world and Gordon and Casspi are just as good if not better defenders than Ben and Gay.
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Gordon broke his finger. no time table for his return. Which could mean he's out till past the trade deadline.
 
Kingston Jamaica

Kingston Jamaica

Bench
#147
#147
The players having a no trade clause in their contract are extremely few (Kobe, Dirk, Garnett and probably 1 or 2 more). So, factually everyone can be traded. Some teams have players that they will never consider trading (players like LBJ, Steph Curry etc.). The rest is simply business and that depends on what's on the table.
 
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