post home open downer

[rainmaker]

No doubt he thinks he is the guy paid to dribble, iso and shoot.

Remind me where all the sets were where we have Gay put in an P&R situation with proper spacing and floor spreaders? Where were the sets with Rudy posted on the wing with weak-side movement/cutters off him and the floor spread? Where were all these options off our movement which I apparently missed?

Rudy forced some shots but there's a real lack of understanding of what goes into an actual system here. When Rudy gets the ball on the wing and everyone just stands and watches, it's more a systematic and coaching issue. People are acting like Rudy ignored our exceptional off the ball movement all night and instead just put his head down and went 1v1.

No idea what game some were watching. Our "system", if one wants to call it that, mostly consists of 3-4 guys standing around watching Cuz and Rudy when they get the rock. That's the real issue, along with our completely non-defensive lineups. People like to point out the Spurs' system, well next time you watch them, look at the movement/options Duncan/Manu have. It's constant motion. No motion, no options.

I'll add, with this "position-less" crap, it's going to be much tougher to define roles and roles/positions are constantly changing. Creates instability. Given our guys looked confused as s*** out there, I'd say that's a part of why we saw what we did.

 

[Livinthedream]

Remind me where all the sets were where we have Gay put in an P&R situation with proper spacing and floor spreaders? Where were the sets with Rudy posted on the wing with weak-side movement/cutters off him and the floor spread? Where were all these options off our movement which I apparently missed?

Rudy forced some shots but there's a real lack of understanding of what goes into an actual system here. When Rudy gets the ball on the wing and everyone just stands and watches, it's more a systematic and coaching issue. People are acting like Rudy ignored our exceptional off the ball movement all night and instead just put his head down and went 1v1.

No idea what game some were watching. Our "system", if one wants to call it that, mostly consists of 3-4 guys standing around watching Cuz and Rudy when they get the rock. That's the real issue, along with our completely non-defensive lineups. People like to point out the Spurs' system, well next time you watch them, look at the movement/options Duncan/Manu have. It's constant motion. No motion, no options.

I'll add, with this "position-less" crap, it's going to be much tougher to define roles and roles/positions are constantly changing. Creates instability. Given our guys looked confused as s*** out there, I'd say that's a part of why we saw what we did.

You are correct. That is the issue. It's not just the motion options. It's the spurs players giving it up to the guys in motion.

The thing the Spurs understand is that you do the little things right and making baskets get easier. Defend well, get more transition buckets. Pass the ball enough, it works its way back to you for an easier shot. Most NBA players can hit shots. JT was hitting 3s in practice, right? Ben hits shots in practice. What makes the Spurs more efficient is that they know when and where they will get the ball. They know if they move to get open, it's coming.

I wanted K.Leonard badly, but he wouldn't have been the same player here. The pressure would have been on him to score points to get minutes. Hit 3s and the Sac fans will deify you. In San Antonio, they didn't care about his points. Told him play D and be in the right place. He progressed quickly and naturally.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

You want to talk downers? I set my DVR (DishNetwork) to record the pre-game show and the game, something I have done every year as I always attend opening night with my family and friends. So far so good. We get to the game and when we walk in, there are NO PROGRAMS. That has never happened before in the whole time I've attended games. Even the Maloofs at their cheapest had programs. In addition, there were NO OPENING NIGHT GAME PINS. This also sucked. My game pin collection now has a gaping hole where last night's pin should be. Then, to top off the whole evening, I get home from the game about midnight, turn on my TV and get ready to watch only to find that what was recorded was NOT the Kings. I did enjoy seeing Jim Kozimor but not in his current capacity. And I didn't enjoy the KNBR talk show that recorded instead of my Kings.

THOSE ARE DOWNERS.

i agree 110%! I too noticed the program thing and made a comment to my GF about it. And now that you mention the pins, yea what the hell!!! I have pins from every home opener since 09 but none this year

Haven't checked my recording yet but i bet the same thing happened to me, because i noticed it was only televised on CSNCA in standard definition, not HD, so i had to find it on a different CSN channel.

 

[twslam07]

McLemore wasn't drafted for his defense, and I'm nowhere near as sold as you are on his "looking better." That's like saying a severed leg looks better when it stops bleeding.

It's time like this I actually miss having a smart phone. I would have loved to post game observations as they were happening. The frustration level with Ben by a vast majority of fans in the arena was palpable. It was only matched by the frustration with our lack of anything resembling a real PF. Looking up to see the patented small ball lineup with Landry at the 5 almost made me hurl. If we don't do something about the 2 and the 4, it's gonna be a long and painful season.

Did I say I'm not frustrated with Ben? Nope. I definitely am. I expect a 7th pick in his second year to give more than he has. Hell I expect a 7th pick rookie to give more than he gave us last year, but what you and I are talking about are two very different things. You're talking about expectations. I'm talking about progress, and going off 1 game of evidence, McLemore has shown progression in his defense. Again, one game is hardly anything to go off, but it is all we have at this point. As sample continues to build, the chips will fall where they may and I will reassess his progression. To say he has not progressed after 1 regular season game is foolish (just as it's foolish to say he has progressed after 1 regular season game), but if we are going to have a discussion around progression, it's not fair to say he hasn't progressed after he had a good defensive game.

 

[randymoss1881]

The people calling for Malones head answer my question.

Raptors had no ball movement what so ever with Gay and Casey was blamed. No offensive set no creativity they said. Now Gay gets traded oh look the ball is moving and they go on a winning streak Cassy gets an extension. So did Casey become a better coach overnight, did Darozen become an all star over night or did getting rid of a me first Gay change every thing??
We were earned even when he was doing good that he played team ball the 1st month in Toronto he was there and we ignored it.

 

[VF21]

Did I say I'm not frustrated with Ben? Nope. I definitely am. I expect a 7th pick in his second year to give more than he has. Hell I expect a 7th pick rookie to give more than he gave us last year, but what you and I are talking about are two very different things. You're talking about expectations. I'm talking about progress, and going off 1 game of evidence, McLemore has shown progression in his defense. Again, one game is hardly anything to go off, but it is all we have at this point. As sample continues to build, the chips will fall where they may and I will reassess his progression. To say he has not progressed after 1 regular season game is foolish (just as it's foolish to say he has progressed after 1 regular season game), but if we are going to have a discussion around progression, it's not fair to say he hasn't progressed after he had a good defensive game.

We'll have to agree to disagree at this point. Ben McLemore not being able to hit water from a boat is very troubling to me. He's never going to be better than an average defender IMHO and if his offense isn't hitting, he's more of a liability than anything else. We need a two-guard who can score.

 

[kupman]

I can't really say that last night was a downer for me as I have no expectations for this team. I certainly do not have high expectations.

 

[twslam07]

We'll have to agree to disagree at this point. Ben McLemore not being able to hit water from a boat is very troubling to me. He's never going to be better than an average defender IMHO and if his offense isn't hitting, he's more of a liability than anything else. We need a two-guard who can score.

I'm not disagreeing with anything in this post, but you entered the conversation that was discussing progression not expectations. Read a little more closely next time so we can all save some time

 

[VF21]

I'm not disagreeing with anything in this post, but you entered the conversation that was discussing progression not expectations. Read a little more closely next time so we can all save some time

Whatever.

I'm still not convinced Ben has progressed, if by progression you mean a net improvement. If his defense goes up but his ability to put ball into hoop has disappeared (as evidenced by that giant freaking goose egg on the scoreboard next to his name), then I'm thinking it's not much of an improvement.

 

[Livinthedream]

Whatever.

I'm still not convinced Ben has progressed, if by progression you mean a net improvement. If his defense goes up but his ability to put ball into hoop has disappeared (as evidenced by that giant freaking goose egg on the scoreboard next to his name), then I'm thinking it's not much of an improvement.

It was one game.

 

[Chupacabra]

The negatives are obvious. I don't think the kings will have too many games where they turn the ball over 30 times and only shoot 30% from field. With that being said let me throw some positives out there:

- defense looks vastly improved. We rotated well, forced turnovers, played some good man defense.
- Collison looked terrific.
- Stauskas looked ready to contribute. Not afraid of making open shots.

 

[VF21]

...No idea what game some were watching. Our "system", if one wants to call it that, mostly consists of 3-4 guys standing around watching Cuz and Rudy when they get the rock. That's the real issue, along with our completely non-defensive lineups. People like to point out the Spurs' system, well next time you watch them, look at the movement/options Duncan/Manu have. It's constant motion. No motion, no options.

I'll add, with this "position-less" crap, it's going to be much tougher to define roles and roles/positions are constantly changing. Creates instability. Given our guys looked confused as s*** out there, I'd say that's a part of why we saw what we did.

You and I don't always see eye-to-eye but this post hits the nail on the head. There were a lot of times last night when it appeared as though they were playing with heart and hustle but no real idea as to their assignments or game plan.

 

[VF21]

It was one game.

True. But it was a game that simply reinforced my assessment of Ben McLemore. I would truly love to be proven wrong, but there's just a Quincy Douby air about him that's harder and harder to ignore.

 

[Iced Espresso]

McLemore wasn't drafted for his defense, and I'm nowhere near as sold as you are on his "looking better." That's like saying a severed leg looks better when it stops bleeding.

It's time like this I actually miss having a smart phone. I would have loved to post game observations as they were happening. The frustration level with Ben by a vast majority of fans in the arena was palpable. It was only matched by the frustration with our lack of anything resembling a real PF. Looking up to see the patented small ball lineup with Landry at the 5 almost made me hurl. If we don't do something about the 2 and the 4, it's gonna be a long and painful season.

McLemore to me at least has been the worst offensive production player starting at SG I've ever seen, only been watching basketball for 30 years or so, so maybe there are some older fellas.

 

[John Galt]

It hurts me to watch Ben flame out, because he has exuberance and athleticism and is just kind of sweetly naive. I would like to see him succeed.

But he has not gotten any better. I saw a video on twitter a few weeks ago of Ben doing dribbling drills. I almost linked it here at the time but decided it would just be "unkind" - I mean he looked like a sixth grader doing those drills... it was pathetic. I could not believe the Kings posted that thing on social media and I just decided to hope it faded to oblivion and that Ben was not really that bad. He is.

And the sad thing is, I'm not sure Ben even realizes how lousy he is doing.

 

[Larry David]

Ben's bad at dribbling and not good at shooting. Even if he becomes ok at shooting, he's not going to be a good scorer with that handle. Maybe, he can catch and shoot open jumpers at some point.

If his shot doesn't improve, his improved defense probably still isn't enough. You'd have to be a Tony Allen level defender to be in the rotation for a good team with abysmal offense. His defense last night was good, but it was by no means exceptional.

Ben plummeted in the draft based upon his workouts. It might be fair to assume those other teams were correct, the Kings saw it also and took a decent gamble based upon his upside and the poor talent level in that draft, and the odds are starting to favor that Ben's upside may only be good defense and decent catch and shoot role player.

 

[206Fan]

The people calling for Malones head answer my question.

Raptors had no ball movement what so ever with Gay and Casey was blamed. No offensive set no creativity they said. Now Gay gets traded oh look the ball is moving and they go on a winning streak Cassy gets an extension. So did Casey become a better coach overnight, did Darozen become an all star over night or did getting rid of a me first Gay change every thing??
We were earned even when he was doing good that he played team ball the 1st month in Toronto he was there and we ignored it.

I don't think you realize something.

Lowry in 2012 averaged 11.6pts 6.4asts with barely .40% fg. His career is 11pts and 5asts. Keep in mind he's been in the NBA for almost 10 years.

Ross emerged for them in his sophomore year. 10pts 3rebs on almost 40% from the 3pt land.

We also gave them a top bench in the NBA.

Yes Rudy plagued their team because they were better off without him. BUT to act like the Raptor's own players didn't get better is pretty silly. Not everything was Gay's fault... they had no bench before we traded them Vasquez, Patterson, Salmons, and Hayes.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Just on the fact that Nik seems to be able to knock down open 3s more consistently than Ben, should gain him the starting spot

 

[Larry David]

Raptors had no ball movement what so ever with Gay and Casey was blamed. No offensive set no creativity they said. Now Gay gets traded oh look the ball is moving and they go on a winning streak Cassy gets an extension. ... We were earned even when he was doing good that he played team ball the 1st month in Toronto he was there and we ignored it.

This. It was just one game. But Rudy has a clear track record on this issue. Also, he's in a contract year. If he won't listen to Malone now, just wait until the Kings overpay him on a 4 or 5 year deal.

Rudy had something to prove last year and Kings fans crowed, "See, it wasn't stupid to trade for him."

But, if Rudy decides his scoring numbers are more important than trying to win some more games here or listening to Malone, we'll get a real good idea of why the Raptors fans feel they way they do about Rudy.

 

[Kingster]

The first minute of the game tells the tale where you see Rudy Gay, without even looking to pass (or see other guys move or not move) put down his head, dribble several times toward the basket from the 3 point line, stop and turn and shoot (and miss). That's on him. Nobody else. And if the motion or lack thereof was an issue, Gay is not a rookie anymore. He's got a voice. He's a vet that people respect. He can yell for guys to move if in fact they aren't moving. Heck, he can call a TO and yell at them for not moving. What is he, a victim now?

NOTE: Malone didn't say one word after the game that guys just stood around like statues or that they they weren't moving. He focused on the "UNWILLINGNESS TO PASS THE BALL", and on "POUNDING THE ROCK" and "SELFISHNESS." Are we reduced to believing that Michael Malone does not realize that the motion offense does in fact include motion in it and that's the real source of the problem? That's a good one. To argue that Rudy Gay was the poor victim of the poor perfomance of others is a canard.

 

[206Fan]

Just on the fact that Nik seems to be able to knock down open 3s more consistently than Ben, should gain him the starting spot

No way. Nik needs to learn to defend too. Would you rather have a struggling offensive player, but a good defensive player as your SG. OR would you rather have a struggling offensive player AND struggling defensive player? Nik shot 3-10... that's not good either. I'd rather have our SG be able to play on at least ONE end of the floor. I've probably been the biggest Nik supporter ever...I actually wanted them to draft Nik after I saw he was the best option left. BUT, we shouldn't rush Nik into the game. Ben gets the nod because he can at least defend. If Nik shot 5-10, that would be a different argument, but he shot 3-10 and played weak defense.

I don't know why everyone is so hard on Ben. He wasn't all horrible yesterday. He defended Klay really well and had great switches with Collision. Just because Collision shot 3-10 from the night doesn't mean he should start over Ben.

Not sure why some have been ready to call him a bust. Terrence Ross was a player who barely shot over 40% his rookie year and averaged 6pts and 2rebs. After his rookie year, he become a force for the Raptors. Give Ben some time...

 

[206Fan]

The first minute of the game tells the tale where you see Rudy Gay, without even looking to pass (or see other guys move or not move) put down his head, dribble several times toward the basket from the 3 point line, stop and turn and shoot (and miss). That's on him. Nobody else. And if the motion or lack thereof was an issue, Gay is not a rookie anymore. He's got a voice. He's a vet that people respect. He can yell for guys to move if in fact they aren't moving. Heck, he can call a TO and yell at them for not moving. What is he, a victim now?

NOTE: Malone didn't say one word after the game that guys just stood around like statues or that they they weren't moving. He focused on the "UNWILLINGNESS TO PASS THE BALL", and on "POUNDING THE ROCK" and "SELFISHNESS." Are we reduced to believing that Michael Malone does not realize that the motion offense does in fact include motion in it and that's the real source of the problem? That's a good one. To argue that Rudy Gay was the poor victim of the poor perfomance of others is a canard.

Can you link me to the video? If Malone indeed called out those players for their poor ass performances, it would give me hope in his coaching. Gay and Sessions were terrible yesterday. I hope Malone layed it out on them.

 

[randymoss1881]

I don't think you realize something.

Lowry in 2012 averaged 11.6pts 6.4asts with barely .40% fg. His career is 11pts and 5asts. Keep in mind he's been in the NBA for almost 10 years.

Ross emerged for them in his sophomore year. 10pts 3rebs on almost 40% from the 3pt land.

We also gave them a top bench in the NBA.

Yes Rudy plagued their team because they were better off without him. BUT to act like the Raptor's own players didn't get better is pretty silly. Not everything was Gay's fault... they had no bench before we traded them Vasquez, Patterson, Salmons, and Hayes.

Yes they had more talent but lowery/DD don't explode if Gay stays why cause he's a me first player.

This. It was just one game. But Rudy has a clear track record on this issue. Also, he's in a contract year. If he won't listen to Malone now, just wait until the Kings overpay him on a 4 or 5 year deal.

Rudy had something to prove last year and Kings fans crowed, "See, it wasn't stupid to trade for him."

But, if Rudy decides his scoring numbers are more important than trying to win some more games here or listening to Malone, we'll get a real good idea of why the Raptors fans feel they way they do about Rudy.

That's what I'm trying to get the fire malone people to see he can preach motion and movement but if Gay our #2 isn't having it than that offense goes to crap. I lost faith when he didn't pass to Nik wide open who is a knowckdown shooter and hit his previous 2 3s. All the assistants just shook there head and Nik put his head down. Also Collison was frustrated visibly multiple times at Gay for not passing it ahead to him to get the offense rolling.

 

[Bricklayer]

On our team? You take the guy who can hit shots. Rudy is not a 3pt shooter, Collison only a bit from the corners. The SG needs to be able to be automatic, and not automatic in the way Ben is automatic. Cuz kicks, SG drains it, that's the only acceptable outcome. If Ben was Tony Allen, maybe that changes. He's not.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

No way. Nik needs to learn to defend too. Would you rather have a struggling offensive player, but a good defensive player as your SG.

Ben is a good defensive player?

Nik did have a rough shooting night but at least he didn't but up a 0. A lot of his missed shots were forced shots at the end of the game when the Kings were in desperation mode. And he got hacked on one of the 3s he took.

He also is a lot more capable of making plays off the dribble than Ben is

 

[206Fan]

On our team? You take the guy who can hit shots. Rudy is not a 3pt shooter, Collison only a bit from the corners. The SG needs to be able to be automatic, and not automatic in the way Ben is automatic. Cuz kicks, SG drains it, that's the only acceptable outcome. If Ben was Tony Allen, maybe that changes. He's not.

But Nik isn't Kyle Krover either. Nik shot 3-10. You have to go with the best player right now. Which is Ben. I think Nik will eventually beat him out, but against a deadly SG, I'd much rather have Ben guard him vs Nik.

Ben is a good defensive player?

Nik did have a rough shooting night but at least he didn't but up a 0. A lot of his missed shots were forced shots at the end of the game when the Kings were in desperation mode. And he got hacked on one of the 3s he took.

He also is a lot more capable of making plays off the dribble than Ben is

Here's last night's play by play http://www.nba.com/games/20141029/GSWSAC/gameinfo.html?ls=slt#Q2

Klay did MOST of the damage against Nik. Look over it. Look at the shots he missed when Ben guarded him.

Ben was good defensively yesterday, and I don't know how anyone can take that away from him... Nik didn't do anything off the dribble yesterday.

Ben had a good defensive game yesterday and was part of the reason why Klay struggled. When Nik was inserted in, that's where Klay did all his damage.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ben is not good enough at anything to worry about. He was terrible last year. Being less terrible isn't a starting recommendation.

We have no shooters except a rookie. That's fine. Our guard rotation is Collison (corner threes only, low volume) Sessions (not a three point shooter), Ben (threatens to kill a cheerleader with his bricks) and Nik. So...Nik it is. Not because it wouldn't be better to have a non-rookie in that role, but because there are no options. Nik and Collison are the highest bball-IQ backcourt we can field too. We simply do not have the firepower to overcome no production form that position.

Ben meanwhile can continue down this path and aim for a DeShawn Stephensen career. We just can't have him doing it in the starting lineup. Off the bench its less damaging as Sessions and Landry will cheerfully take the shots if its not Ben's 1 game in 6 where he's hot.

 

[Kingster]

Napier just ripping Cousins for the 6 TOs and the stupid move of trying to steal the ball in the backcourt. "Enough already with trying to steal the ball in the backcourt!!!!" (LOL). Also ripped Gay for "forcing it every time."

 

[Big Cuz 15]

yes, i'll pour salt on an open wound.

[video]

spend $$ on LRM->DWILL/Landry over reke, talk bout defense (gut the team of defense), draft for defense[i mean offense], nba 3.0, position-less basketball, cherry picking
as a kings fan, i'm thrilled to see what is cooking around the corner.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

Just on the fact that Nik seems to be able to knock down open 3s more consistently than Ben, should gain him the starting spot

let's just hope we can showcase ben so we can ship him out asap. he has bust written on his forehead. scot pollard said in an interview he can't dribble. petey and co must not have seen the scouting report on him.